Greetings!
I’ve just finished doing an LED swap out of all the lights in a Space Station. It looks pretty fantastic and the “condition green” GI is amazing for sure... almost wasn’t aware that existed before now and I’ve owned this machine for years. I also did the NVRAM replacement of the static RAM, saying goodbye to “adjustment failure” on startup and risky battery hassles. Lastly, replaced my flickering / segments-starting-to-fail score display with a RottenDog LED drop in replacement that looks fantastic.
So, yes, I’m trying to really refresh this machine despite it being in generally good shape as long as I’ve owned it.
I do note that there are a few cases where I’m getting partial LED lighting beyond the light that should be on (mostly among the lights in the ring of the space station in the backbox). They light individually properly, but a little leakage is happening in light X when light Y should be the only one active. It’s not universal - just a few I’ve noticed in play and in light tests.
On a related note: two of my flashers (back left corner and the next closest diagonally nearest the rotating space station) go off slightly with every firing of the flippers.
My assumption is the low voltage requirements/higher sensitivity of the LEDs is showing me “leakage” of sorts somewhere in the system? Would this be breakdown of some of the transistors or similar? Should there be caps or resistors perhaps added somewhere to smooth things out?
Thought I might call on the collective wisdom here for guidance before I go down a dozen wrong paths. I’ve done some initial searching on the topic, but coming up with a wide array of issues that I don’t -think- are quite the same.
Thanks!
- Aaron
John:
Thanks for the quick reply. To be clear, yes, I assumed it wasn’t a bug so much as the LEDs not behaving the way the incandescents do... just wasn’t sure if this indicated some things were less than optimum in the health of the machine that the incandescents hide, so to speak.
Fortunately, nothing glows constantly that shouldn’t... just a few things come on at low brightness alongside the things that are properly coming on full bright when triggered.
I don’t find any of it problematic enough that anything but a quick fix with a pretty low bar makes it worth pursuing. The flasher firing with the flippers is the most annoying one, but honestly not a big deal itself. I was seeking a possible “yeah, swap out these transistors... they are aging” or similar common fix if it existed.
I didn’t anticipate code changes doing it. That’s interesting. I have an old EEPROM burner, so if I can find relevant fixes, I probably have the things I need on hand to try that. Would be a chance to add sockets if they aren’t already there (I don’t recall), too.
Thanks - I’ll do some more research!
- Aaron
On 4/29/2020 10:56 AM, Aaron Mahler wrote:I suspect the non-ghosting LEDs have a small capacitor inside. Which is
John:
Thanks for the quick reply. To be clear, yes, I assumed it wasn’t a >> bug so much as the LEDs not behaving the way the incandescents do...
just wasn’t sure if this indicated some things were less than optimum
in the health of the machine that the incandescents hide, so to speak.>>
Fortunately, nothing glows constantly that shouldn’t... just a few
things come on at low brightness alongside the things that are
properly coming on full bright when triggered.
I don’t find any of it problematic enough that anything but a quick >> fix with a pretty low bar makes it worth pursuing. The flasher firing >> with the flippers is the most annoying one, but honestly not a big
deal itself. I was seeking a possible “yeah, swap out these
transistors... they are aging” or similar common fix if it existed.
I didn’t anticipate code changes doing it. That’s interesting. I >> have an old EEPROM burner, so if I can find relevant fixes, I probably
have the things I need on hand to try that. Would be a chance to add
sockets if they aren’t already there (I don’t recall), too.
Thanks - I’ll do some more research!
- Aaron
Have you tried the non-ghosting LEDs? They are available from many
pinball LED vendors. For example: https://cointaker.com/products/44-47-premium-frosted
Or, the more expensive solution is the LED OCD board.
- Kerry
On 4/29/2020 10:56 AM, Aaron Mahler wrote:
John:
Thanks for the quick reply. To be clear, yes, I assumed it wasn’t a bug so much as the LEDs not behaving the way the incandescents do... just wasn’t sure if this indicated some things were less than optimum in the health of the machine that the incandescents hide, so to speak.
Fortunately, nothing glows constantly that shouldn’t... just a few things come on at low brightness alongside the things that are properly coming on full bright when triggered.
I don’t find any of it problematic enough that anything but a quick fix with a pretty low bar makes it worth pursuing. The flasher firing with the flippers is the most annoying one, but honestly not a big deal itself. I was seeking a possible “yeah, swap out these transistors... they are aging” or similar common fix if it existed.
I didn’t anticipate code changes doing it. That’s interesting. I have an old EEPROM burner, so if I can find relevant fixes, I probably have the things I need on hand to try that. Would be a chance to add sockets if they aren’t already there (I don’t recall), too.
Thanks - I’ll do some more research!
- Aaron
Have you tried the non-ghosting LEDs? They are available from manySo, as it turns out, I bought these from Marco Specialties which sources them from Cointaker. :) So... yep, these are non-ghosting, I suspect.
pinball LED vendors. For example: https://cointaker.com/products/44-47-premium-frosted
Or, the more expensive solution is the LED OCD board.
- Kerry
On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 4:28:58 PM UTC-4, Kerry Imming wrote:
On 4/29/2020 10:56 AM, Aaron Mahler wrote:
John:
Thanks for the quick reply. To be clear, yes, I assumed it wasn’t a bug so much as the LEDs not behaving the way the incandescents do... just wasn’t sure if this indicated some things were less than optimum in the health of the machine that the incandescents hide, so to speak.
Fortunately, nothing glows constantly that shouldn’t... just a few things come on at low brightness alongside the things that are properly coming on full bright when triggered.
I don’t find any of it problematic enough that anything but a quick fix with a pretty low bar makes it worth pursuing. The flasher firing with the flippers is the most annoying one, but honestly not a big deal itself. I was seeking a possible “yeah, swap out these transistors... they are aging” or similar common fix if it existed.
I didn’t anticipate code changes doing it. That’s interesting. I have an old EEPROM burner, so if I can find relevant fixes, I probably have the things I need on hand to try that. Would be a chance to add sockets if they aren’t already there (I don’t recall), too.
Thanks - I’ll do some more research!
- Aaron
Have you tried the non-ghosting LEDs? They are available from many
pinball LED vendors. For example:
https://cointaker.com/products/44-47-premium-frosted
Or, the more expensive solution is the LED OCD board.
- Kerry
So, as it turns out, I bought these from Marco Specialties which sources them from Cointaker. :) So... yep, these are non-ghosting, I suspect.
This doesn't strike me as the "ghosting" I would imagine since the issue is not universal. It's quite literally just a few lights in the whole system. Two flashers that flash whenever I use the flippers, and a couple in the backbox that come on dim alongside others. Otherwise, I don't see anything with a low glow, etc... most are on or off just fine save the few exceptions noted.
This is why I continue to wonder if there is "leakage" from some component breaking down a bit - especially in the case of the two flashers that happen to blink when I hit the flippers (otherwise are off or full on when called upon properly). Granted, all of this is my imagination based on the terminology or my own descriptions.
Best,
- Aaron
On 4/29/2020 3:59 PM, Aaron Mahler wrote:
On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 4:28:58 PM UTC-4, Kerry Imming wrote:
On 4/29/2020 10:56 AM, Aaron Mahler wrote:
John:
Thanks for the quick reply. To be clear, yes, I assumed it
wasn’t a bug so much as the LEDs not behaving the way the
incandescents do... just wasn’t sure if this indicated some things
were less than optimum in the health of the machine that the
incandescents hide, so to speak.
Fortunately, nothing glows constantly that shouldn’t... just a >>>> few things come on at low brightness alongside the things that are
properly coming on full bright when triggered.
I don’t find any of it problematic enough that anything but a >>>> quick fix with a pretty low bar makes it worth pursuing. The flasher
firing with the flippers is the most annoying one, but honestly not
a big deal itself. I was seeking a possible “yeah, swap out these
transistors... they are aging” or similar common fix if it existed.
I didn’t anticipate code changes doing it. That’s interesting. I
have an old EEPROM burner, so if I can find relevant fixes, I
probably have the things I need on hand to try that. Would be a
chance to add sockets if they aren’t already there (I don’t recall), >>>> too.
Thanks - I’ll do some more research!
- Aaron
Have you tried the non-ghosting LEDs? They are available from many
pinball LED vendors. For example:
https://cointaker.com/products/44-47-premium-frosted
Or, the more expensive solution is the LED OCD board.
- Kerry
So, as it turns out, I bought these from Marco Specialties which
sources them from Cointaker. :) So... yep, these are non-ghosting, I
suspect.
This doesn't strike me as the "ghosting" I would imagine since the
issue is not universal. It's quite literally just a few lights in the
whole system. Two flashers that flash whenever I use the flippers, and
a couple in the backbox that come on dim alongside others. Otherwise,
I don't see anything with a low glow, etc... most are on or off just
fine save the few exceptions noted.
This is why I continue to wonder if there is "leakage" from some
component breaking down a bit - especially in the case of the two
flashers that happen to blink when I hit the flippers (otherwise are
off or full on when called upon properly). Granted, all of this is my
imagination based on the terminology or my own descriptions.
Best,
- Aaron
The non-ghosting LEDs are quite a bit more expensive than regular ones,
so you should be able to find out what you have by the price.
I should have pointed out that the LED OCD board has advantages beyond stopping the ghosting. It will make dimming effects work correctly. For example the shield strength indicators in ST:TNG.
- Kerry
On 4/29/20 8:22 PM, Kerry Imming wrote:
On 4/29/2020 3:59 PM, Aaron Mahler wrote:
On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 4:28:58 PM UTC-4, Kerry Imming wrote:>>>> On 4/29/2020 10:56 AM, Aaron Mahler wrote:
John:
Thanks for the quick reply. To be clear, yes, I assumed it
wasn’t a bug so much as the LEDs not behaving the way the
incandescents do... just wasn’t sure if this indicated some things >>>>> were less than optimum in the health of the machine that the
incandescents hide, so to speak.
Fortunately, nothing glows constantly that shouldn’t... just a >>>>> few things come on at low brightness alongside the things that are >>>>> properly coming on full bright when triggered.
I don’t find any of it problematic enough that anything but a >>>>> quick fix with a pretty low bar makes it worth pursuing. The
flasher firing with the flippers is the most annoying one, but
honestly not a big deal itself. I was seeking a possible “yeah,
swap out these transistors... they are aging” or similar common fix >>>>> if it existed.
I didn’t anticipate code changes doing it. That’s interesting.
I have an old EEPROM burner, so if I can find relevant fixes, I
probably have the things I need on hand to try that. Would be a
chance to add sockets if they aren’t already there (I don’t
recall), too.
Thanks - I’ll do some more research!
- Aaron
Have you tried the non-ghosting LEDs? They are available from many
pinball LED vendors. For example:
https://cointaker.com/products/44-47-premium-frosted
Or, the more expensive solution is the LED OCD board.
- Kerry
So, as it turns out, I bought these from Marco Specialties which
sources them from Cointaker. :) So... yep, these are non-ghosting, I >>> suspect.
This doesn't strike me as the "ghosting" I would imagine since the
issue is not universal. It's quite literally just a few lights in the
whole system. Two flashers that flash whenever I use the flippers,
and a couple in the backbox that come on dim alongside others.
Otherwise, I don't see anything with a low glow, etc... most are on
or off just fine save the few exceptions noted.
This is why I continue to wonder if there is "leakage" from some
component breaking down a bit - especially in the case of the two
flashers that happen to blink when I hit the flippers (otherwise are >>> off or full on when called upon properly). Granted, all of this is my
imagination based on the terminology or my own descriptions.
Best,
- Aaron
The non-ghosting LEDs are quite a bit more expensive than regular
ones, so you should be able to find out what you have by the price.
I should have pointed out that the LED OCD board has advantages beyond
stopping the ghosting. It will make dimming effects work correctly.
For example the shield strength indicators in ST:TNG.
- Kerry
Williams system 11B should not need anti-ghosting LEDs. I have converted several without an issue. But I have used Pinball Life standard LEDs
and not Cointaker. I am surprised that Cointaker / Marco stuck you with the more expensive non-ghosting LEDs.
Recently, I had no issues with an F14 with regular LEDs.
However, there are lists supposedly based on real world experience where High Speed (11), Swords of Fury (11B) do not ghost, but Pinbot (11A) and Whirlwind (11B) do. Go figure.
https://www.pinballbulbs.com/ghosting-list
I don't know if to trust this information. Without testing using the
same brand LED, it maybe unreliable.
It is possible that there is some other action, like a motor or a switch that arcs that could be inducing the flickering. We see that in many EM pins every time a solenoid fires.
The flasher issue where they flicker with the flippers sounds like the > induction of noise that might be causing the flickering? I think > Williams took out the 'warming resistor' by 11B, so I assume that is not
contributing? Does the EOS switch have the cap on it?
John, I thought, from visual inspection, that the non-ghosting was accomplished by inserting a resistor in series with the LED. But I
could be completely wrong in this. It maybe time to dissect an anti-ghosting LED.
On 2020/05/01 12:01 p.m., LexingtonVAPin wrote:
On 4/29/20 8:22 PM, Kerry Imming wrote:
On 4/29/2020 3:59 PM, Aaron Mahler wrote:
On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 4:28:58 PM UTC-4, Kerry Imming wrote: >>>>> On 4/29/2020 10:56 AM, Aaron Mahler wrote:
John:
Thanks for the quick reply. To be clear, yes, I assumed it >>>>>> wasn’t a bug so much as the LEDs not behaving the way the
incandescents do... just wasn’t sure if this indicated some things >>>>>> were less than optimum in the health of the machine that the
incandescents hide, so to speak.
Fortunately, nothing glows constantly that shouldn’t... just a >>>>>> few things come on at low brightness alongside the things that are >>>>>> properly coming on full bright when triggered.
I don’t find any of it problematic enough that anything but a >>>>>> quick fix with a pretty low bar makes it worth pursuing. The
flasher firing with the flippers is the most annoying one, but
honestly not a big deal itself. I was seeking a possible “yeah, >>>>>> swap out these transistors... they are aging” or similar common >>>>>> fix if it existed.
I didn’t anticipate code changes doing it. That’s interesting.
I have an old EEPROM burner, so if I can find relevant fixes, I
probably have the things I need on hand to try that. Would be a
chance to add sockets if they aren’t already there (I don’t
recall), too.
Thanks - I’ll do some more research!
- Aaron
Have you tried the non-ghosting LEDs? They are available from many >>>>> pinball LED vendors. For example:
https://cointaker.com/products/44-47-premium-frosted
Or, the more expensive solution is the LED OCD board.
- Kerry
So, as it turns out, I bought these from Marco Specialties which
sources them from Cointaker. :) So... yep, these are non-ghosting, I
suspect.
This doesn't strike me as the "ghosting" I would imagine since the
issue is not universal. It's quite literally just a few lights in
the whole system. Two flashers that flash whenever I use the
flippers, and a couple in the backbox that come on dim alongside
others. Otherwise, I don't see anything with a low glow, etc... most
are on or off just fine save the few exceptions noted.
This is why I continue to wonder if there is "leakage" from some
component breaking down a bit - especially in the case of the two
flashers that happen to blink when I hit the flippers (otherwise are
off or full on when called upon properly). Granted, all of this is
my imagination based on the terminology or my own descriptions.
Best,
- Aaron
The non-ghosting LEDs are quite a bit more expensive than regular
ones, so you should be able to find out what you have by the price.
I should have pointed out that the LED OCD board has advantages
beyond stopping the ghosting. It will make dimming effects work
correctly. For example the shield strength indicators in ST:TNG.
- Kerry
Williams system 11B should not need anti-ghosting LEDs. I have
converted several without an issue. But I have used Pinball Life
standard LEDs and not Cointaker. I am surprised that Cointaker /
Marco stuck you with the more expensive non-ghosting LEDs.
Recently, I had no issues with an F14 with regular LEDs.
However, there are lists supposedly based on real world experience
where High Speed (11), Swords of Fury (11B) do not ghost, but Pinbot
(11A) and Whirlwind (11B) do. Go figure.
https://www.pinballbulbs.com/ghosting-list
I don't know if to trust this information. Without testing using the
same brand LED, it maybe unreliable.
It is possible that there is some other action, like a motor or a
switch that arcs that could be inducing the flickering. We see that
in many EM pins every time a solenoid fires.
The flasher issue where they flicker with the flippers sounds like the
induction of noise that might be causing the flickering? I think
Williams took out the 'warming resistor' by 11B, so I assume that is
not contributing? Does the EOS switch have the cap on it?
John, I thought, from visual inspection, that the non-ghosting was
accomplished by inserting a resistor in series with the LED. But I
could be completely wrong in this. It maybe time to dissect an
anti-ghosting LED.
A resistor will only dim the LED, and if you look inside any LED for our games you will find a dropping resistor already there, otherwise the
LEDs would burn out!
John :-#)#
On 5/1/20 3:18 PM, John Robertson wrote:That is a 100mfd/6V capacitor. That is the only way I can see reducing
On 2020/05/01 12:01 p.m., LexingtonVAPin wrote:
On 4/29/20 8:22 PM, Kerry Imming wrote:
On 4/29/2020 3:59 PM, Aaron Mahler wrote:
On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 4:28:58 PM UTC-4, Kerry Imming wrote: >>>>>> On 4/29/2020 10:56 AM, Aaron Mahler wrote:
John:
Thanks for the quick reply. To be clear, yes, I assumed it >>>>>>> wasn’t a bug so much as the LEDs not behaving the way the
incandescents do... just wasn’t sure if this indicated some
things were less than optimum in the health of the machine that >>>>>>> the incandescents hide, so to speak.
Fortunately, nothing glows constantly that shouldn’t... just a >>>>>>> few things come on at low brightness alongside the things that
are properly coming on full bright when triggered.
I don’t find any of it problematic enough that anything but a >>>>>>> quick fix with a pretty low bar makes it worth pursuing. The
flasher firing with the flippers is the most annoying one, but
honestly not a big deal itself. I was seeking a possible “yeah, >>>>>>> swap out these transistors... they are aging” or similar common >>>>>>> fix if it existed.
I didn’t anticipate code changes doing it. That’s
interesting. I have an old EEPROM burner, so if I can find
relevant fixes, I probably have the things I need on hand to try >>>>>>> that. Would be a chance to add sockets if they aren’t already
there (I don’t recall), too.
Thanks - I’ll do some more research!
- Aaron
Have you tried the non-ghosting LEDs? They are available from many >>>>>> pinball LED vendors. For example:
https://cointaker.com/products/44-47-premium-frosted
Or, the more expensive solution is the LED OCD board.
- Kerry
So, as it turns out, I bought these from Marco Specialties which
sources them from Cointaker. :) So... yep, these are non-ghosting, >>>>> I suspect.
This doesn't strike me as the "ghosting" I would imagine since the >>>>> issue is not universal. It's quite literally just a few lights in
the whole system. Two flashers that flash whenever I use the
flippers, and a couple in the backbox that come on dim alongside
others. Otherwise, I don't see anything with a low glow, etc...
most are on or off just fine save the few exceptions noted.
This is why I continue to wonder if there is "leakage" from some
component breaking down a bit - especially in the case of the two
flashers that happen to blink when I hit the flippers (otherwise
are off or full on when called upon properly). Granted, all of this >>>>> is my imagination based on the terminology or my own descriptions.
Best,
- Aaron
The non-ghosting LEDs are quite a bit more expensive than regular
ones, so you should be able to find out what you have by the price.
I should have pointed out that the LED OCD board has advantages
beyond stopping the ghosting. It will make dimming effects work
correctly. For example the shield strength indicators in ST:TNG.
- Kerry
Williams system 11B should not need anti-ghosting LEDs. I have
converted several without an issue. But I have used Pinball Life
standard LEDs and not Cointaker. I am surprised that Cointaker /
Marco stuck you with the more expensive non-ghosting LEDs.
Recently, I had no issues with an F14 with regular LEDs.
However, there are lists supposedly based on real world experience
where High Speed (11), Swords of Fury (11B) do not ghost, but Pinbot >>> (11A) and Whirlwind (11B) do. Go figure.
https://www.pinballbulbs.com/ghosting-list
I don't know if to trust this information. Without testing using the
same brand LED, it maybe unreliable.
It is possible that there is some other action, like a motor or a
switch that arcs that could be inducing the flickering. We see that
in many EM pins every time a solenoid fires.
The flasher issue where they flicker with the flippers sounds like
the induction of noise that might be causing the flickering? I think
Williams took out the 'warming resistor' by 11B, so I assume that is >>> not contributing? Does the EOS switch have the cap on it?
John, I thought, from visual inspection, that the non-ghosting was
accomplished by inserting a resistor in series with the LED. But I
could be completely wrong in this. It maybe time to dissect an >>> anti-ghosting LED.
A resistor will only dim the LED, and if you look inside any LED for
our games you will find a dropping resistor already there, otherwise
the LEDs would burn out!
John :-#)#
Sorry John. I was rather lazy in my response. Of course you are
correct for a LED.
Regular LEDs have a Vf of anywhere from ~2V to ~4.5 and would require a resistor in series.
SMD LEDs (which I have no design experience) like the high power 3535 Vf
can be over 6V. I have no idea if they need a resistor or not in a
nominal 6V pinball circuit.
The 5050 SMD LED seems to be the most popular these days and it has a
max Vf of 3.4 V and 3 diodes per chip. Dual SMDs are common. Would dual 5050's be in series without the resistor?
I took a photo of a 'naked' flexible SMD LED (see link). The SMD LED
has three contacts on each side, which might coincide with the 3 diodes?
There are also three components on the back, with three leads each.
There is an additional larger component in the center that is marked
"100" and "6V". This larger component might be 'piggybacked' on the back
of a sort of 'wafer'.
The anti-ghosting 555 SMD LEDs have two resistors, one on each leg, in > addition to what looks like these components.
Without dissecting a regular (not non-ghosting) SMD LED, I do not see a resistor, but there could be one or two.
If you, or anyone, can help explain how these LEDs are non-ghosting, I > would appreciate the explanation.
https://flic.kr/s/aHsmMYErKr
On 2020/05/03 10:03 a.m., LexingtonVAPin wrote:
On 5/1/20 3:18 PM, John Robertson wrote:
On 2020/05/01 12:01 p.m., LexingtonVAPin wrote:
On 4/29/20 8:22 PM, Kerry Imming wrote:
On 4/29/2020 3:59 PM, Aaron Mahler wrote:
On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 4:28:58 PM UTC-4, Kerry Imming wrote: >>>>>>> On 4/29/2020 10:56 AM, Aaron Mahler wrote:
John:
Thanks for the quick reply. To be clear, yes, I assumed it >>>>>>>> wasn’t a bug so much as the LEDs not behaving the way the
incandescents do... just wasn’t sure if this indicated some >>>>>>>> things were less than optimum in the health of the machine that >>>>>>>> the incandescents hide, so to speak.
Fortunately, nothing glows constantly that shouldn’t... just >>>>>>>> a few things come on at low brightness alongside the things that >>>>>>>> are properly coming on full bright when triggered.
I don’t find any of it problematic enough that anything but >>>>>>>> a quick fix with a pretty low bar makes it worth pursuing. The >>>>>>>> flasher firing with the flippers is the most annoying one, but >>>>>>>> honestly not a big deal itself. I was seeking a possible “yeah, >>>>>>>> swap out these transistors... they are aging” or similar common >>>>>>>> fix if it existed.
I didn’t anticipate code changes doing it. That’s
interesting. I have an old EEPROM burner, so if I can find
relevant fixes, I probably have the things I need on hand to try >>>>>>>> that. Would be a chance to add sockets if they aren’t already >>>>>>>> there (I don’t recall), too.
Thanks - I’ll do some more research!
- Aaron
Have you tried the non-ghosting LEDs? They are available from many >>>>>>> pinball LED vendors. For example:
https://cointaker.com/products/44-47-premium-frosted
Or, the more expensive solution is the LED OCD board.
- Kerry
So, as it turns out, I bought these from Marco Specialties which
sources them from Cointaker. :) So... yep, these are non-ghosting, >>>>>> I suspect.
This doesn't strike me as the "ghosting" I would imagine since the >>>>>> issue is not universal. It's quite literally just a few lights in >>>>>> the whole system. Two flashers that flash whenever I use the
flippers, and a couple in the backbox that come on dim alongside
others. Otherwise, I don't see anything with a low glow, etc...
most are on or off just fine save the few exceptions noted.
This is why I continue to wonder if there is "leakage" from some
component breaking down a bit - especially in the case of the two >>>>>> flashers that happen to blink when I hit the flippers (otherwise
are off or full on when called upon properly). Granted, all of
this is my imagination based on the terminology or my own
descriptions.
Best,
- Aaron
The non-ghosting LEDs are quite a bit more expensive than regular
ones, so you should be able to find out what you have by the price.
I should have pointed out that the LED OCD board has advantages
beyond stopping the ghosting. It will make dimming effects work
correctly. For example the shield strength indicators in ST:TNG.
- Kerry
Williams system 11B should not need anti-ghosting LEDs. I have
converted several without an issue. But I have used Pinball Life
standard LEDs and not Cointaker. I am surprised that Cointaker /
Marco stuck you with the more expensive non-ghosting LEDs.
Recently, I had no issues with an F14 with regular LEDs.
However, there are lists supposedly based on real world experience
where High Speed (11), Swords of Fury (11B) do not ghost, but Pinbot
(11A) and Whirlwind (11B) do. Go figure.
https://www.pinballbulbs.com/ghosting-list
I don't know if to trust this information. Without testing using
the same brand LED, it maybe unreliable.
It is possible that there is some other action, like a motor or a
switch that arcs that could be inducing the flickering. We see that >>>> in many EM pins every time a solenoid fires.
The flasher issue where they flicker with the flippers sounds like
the induction of noise that might be causing the flickering? I
think Williams took out the 'warming resistor' by 11B, so I assume
that is not contributing? Does the EOS switch have the cap on it?
John, I thought, from visual inspection, that the non-ghosting was
accomplished by inserting a resistor in series with the LED. But I
could be completely wrong in this. It maybe time to dissect an
anti-ghosting LED.
A resistor will only dim the LED, and if you look inside any LED for
our games you will find a dropping resistor already there, otherwise
the LEDs would burn out!
John :-#)#
Sorry John. I was rather lazy in my response. Of course you are
correct for a LED.
Regular LEDs have a Vf of anywhere from ~2V to ~4.5 and would require
a resistor in series.
SMD LEDs (which I have no design experience) like the high power 3535
Vf can be over 6V. I have no idea if they need a resistor or not in a
nominal 6V pinball circuit.
The 5050 SMD LED seems to be the most popular these days and it has a
max Vf of 3.4 V and 3 diodes per chip. Dual SMDs are common. Would
dual 5050's be in series without the resistor?
I took a photo of a 'naked' flexible SMD LED (see link). The SMD LED
has three contacts on each side, which might coincide with the 3 diodes?
There are also three components on the back, with three leads each.
There is an additional larger component in the center that is marked
"100" and "6V". This larger component might be 'piggybacked' on the
back of a sort of 'wafer'.
That is a 100mfd/6V capacitor. That is the only way I can see reducing
the flickering - inexpensively.
The anti-ghosting 555 SMD LEDs have two resistors, one on each leg, in
addition to what looks like these components.
Without dissecting a regular (not non-ghosting) SMD LED, I do not see
a resistor, but there could be one or two.
If you, or anyone, can help explain how these LEDs are non-ghosting, I
would appreciate the explanation.
https://flic.kr/s/aHsmMYErKr
Cap across the LED, dropping resistor (if present) between LED and power.
John :-#)#
On 5/3/20 5:56 PM, John Robertson wrote:
On 2020/05/03 10:03 a.m., LexingtonVAPin wrote:
On 5/1/20 3:18 PM, John Robertson wrote:
On 2020/05/01 12:01 p.m., LexingtonVAPin wrote:
On 4/29/20 8:22 PM, Kerry Imming wrote:
On 4/29/2020 3:59 PM, Aaron Mahler wrote:
On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 4:28:58 PM UTC-4, Kerry Imming
wrote:
On 4/29/2020 10:56 AM, Aaron Mahler wrote:
John:
Thanks for the quick reply. To be clear, yes, I assumed it >>>>>>>>> wasn’t a bug so much as the LEDs not behaving the way the >>>>>>>>> incandescents do... just wasn’t sure if this indicated some >>>>>>>>> things were less than optimum in the health of the machine that >>>>>>>>> the incandescents hide, so to speak.
Fortunately, nothing glows constantly that shouldn’t... just >>>>>>>>> a few things come on at low brightness alongside the things >>>>>>>>> that are properly coming on full bright when triggered.
I don’t find any of it problematic enough that anything but >>>>>>>>> a quick fix with a pretty low bar makes it worth pursuing. The >>>>>>>>> flasher firing with the flippers is the most annoying one, but >>>>>>>>> honestly not a big deal itself. I was seeking a possible “yeah,
swap out these transistors... they are aging” or similar common >>>>>>>>> fix if it existed.
I didn’t anticipate code changes doing it. That’s >>>>>>>>> interesting. I have an old EEPROM burner, so if I can find
relevant fixes, I probably have the things I need on hand to >>>>>>>>> try that. Would be a chance to add sockets if they aren’t >>>>>>>>> already there (I don’t recall), too.
Thanks - I’ll do some more research!
- Aaron
Have you tried the non-ghosting LEDs? They are available from many >>>>>>>> pinball LED vendors. For example:
https://cointaker.com/products/44-47-premium-frosted
Or, the more expensive solution is the LED OCD board.
- Kerry
So, as it turns out, I bought these from Marco Specialties which >>>>>>> sources them from Cointaker. :) So... yep, these are
non-ghosting, I suspect.
This doesn't strike me as the "ghosting" I would imagine since
the issue is not universal. It's quite literally just a few
lights in the whole system. Two flashers that flash whenever I
use the flippers, and a couple in the backbox that come on dim
alongside others. Otherwise, I don't see anything with a low
glow, etc... most are on or off just fine save the few exceptions >>>>>>> noted.
This is why I continue to wonder if there is "leakage" from some >>>>>>> component breaking down a bit - especially in the case of the two
flashers that happen to blink when I hit the flippers (otherwise >>>>>>> are off or full on when called upon properly). Granted, all of
this is my imagination based on the terminology or my own
descriptions.
Best,
- Aaron
The non-ghosting LEDs are quite a bit more expensive than regular >>>>>> ones, so you should be able to find out what you have by the price.
I should have pointed out that the LED OCD board has advantages
beyond stopping the ghosting. It will make dimming effects work >>>>>> correctly. For example the shield strength indicators in ST:TNG.
- Kerry
Williams system 11B should not need anti-ghosting LEDs. I have
converted several without an issue. But I have used Pinball Life
standard LEDs and not Cointaker. I am surprised that Cointaker /
Marco stuck you with the more expensive non-ghosting LEDs.
Recently, I had no issues with an F14 with regular LEDs.
However, there are lists supposedly based on real world experience >>>>> where High Speed (11), Swords of Fury (11B) do not ghost, but
Pinbot (11A) and Whirlwind (11B) do. Go figure.
https://www.pinballbulbs.com/ghosting-list
I don't know if to trust this information. Without testing using
the same brand LED, it maybe unreliable.
It is possible that there is some other action, like a motor or a
switch that arcs that could be inducing the flickering. We see
that in many EM pins every time a solenoid fires.
The flasher issue where they flicker with the flippers sounds like >>>>> the induction of noise that might be causing the flickering? I
think Williams took out the 'warming resistor' by 11B, so I assume >>>>> that is not contributing? Does the EOS switch have the cap on it?
John, I thought, from visual inspection, that the non-ghosting was >>>>> accomplished by inserting a resistor in series with the LED. But I
could be completely wrong in this. It maybe time to dissect an
anti-ghosting LED.
A resistor will only dim the LED, and if you look inside any LED for
our games you will find a dropping resistor already there, otherwise
the LEDs would burn out!
John :-#)#
Sorry John. I was rather lazy in my response. Of course you are
correct for a LED.
Regular LEDs have a Vf of anywhere from ~2V to ~4.5 and would require
a resistor in series.
SMD LEDs (which I have no design experience) like the high power 3535
Vf can be over 6V. I have no idea if they need a resistor or not in
a nominal 6V pinball circuit.
The 5050 SMD LED seems to be the most popular these days and it has a
max Vf of 3.4 V and 3 diodes per chip. Dual SMDs are common. Would
dual 5050's be in series without the resistor?
I took a photo of a 'naked' flexible SMD LED (see link). The SMD LED
has three contacts on each side, which might coincide with the 3 diodes? >>>
There are also three components on the back, with three leads each.
There is an additional larger component in the center that is marked >>> "100" and "6V". This larger component might be 'piggybacked' on the
back of a sort of 'wafer'.
That is a 100mfd/6V capacitor. That is the only way I can see reducing
the flickering - inexpensively.
The anti-ghosting 555 SMD LEDs have two resistors, one on each leg,
in addition to what looks like these components.
Without dissecting a regular (not non-ghosting) SMD LED, I do not see
a resistor, but there could be one or two.
If you, or anyone, can help explain how these LEDs are non-ghosting, >>> I would appreciate the explanation.
https://flic.kr/s/aHsmMYErKr
Cap across the LED, dropping resistor (if present) between LED and power.
John :-#)#
Thanks John. I am terrible at identifying SMD parts.
Not sure what the other three components are.
On 2020/05/04 2:03 p.m., LexingtonVAPin wrote:
On 5/3/20 5:56 PM, John Robertson wrote:
On 2020/05/03 10:03 a.m., LexingtonVAPin wrote:
On 5/1/20 3:18 PM, John Robertson wrote:
On 2020/05/01 12:01 p.m., LexingtonVAPin wrote:
On 4/29/20 8:22 PM, Kerry Imming wrote:
On 4/29/2020 3:59 PM, Aaron Mahler wrote:
On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 4:28:58 PM UTC-4, Kerry Imming >>>>>>>> wrote:
On 4/29/2020 10:56 AM, Aaron Mahler wrote:
John:
Thanks for the quick reply. To be clear, yes, I assumed it >>>>>>>>>> wasn’t a bug so much as the LEDs not behaving the way the >>>>>>>>>> incandescents do... just wasn’t sure if this indicated some >>>>>>>>>> things were less than optimum in the health of the machine >>>>>>>>>> that the incandescents hide, so to speak.
Fortunately, nothing glows constantly that shouldn’t... >>>>>>>>>> just a few things come on at low brightness alongside the >>>>>>>>>> things that are properly coming on full bright when triggered. >>>>>>>>>>
I don’t find any of it problematic enough that anything >>>>>>>>>> but a quick fix with a pretty low bar makes it worth pursuing. >>>>>>>>>> The flasher firing with the flippers is the most annoying one, >>>>>>>>>> but honestly not a big deal itself. I was seeking a possible >>>>>>>>>> “yeah, swap out these transistors... they are aging” or >>>>>>>>>> similar common fix if it existed.
I didn’t anticipate code changes doing it. That’s >>>>>>>>>> interesting. I have an old EEPROM burner, so if I can find >>>>>>>>>> relevant fixes, I probably have the things I need on hand to >>>>>>>>>> try that. Would be a chance to add sockets if they aren’t >>>>>>>>>> already there (I don’t recall), too.
Thanks - I’ll do some more research!
- Aaron
Have you tried the non-ghosting LEDs? They are available from >>>>>>>>> many
pinball LED vendors. For example:
https://cointaker.com/products/44-47-premium-frosted
Or, the more expensive solution is the LED OCD board.
- Kerry
So, as it turns out, I bought these from Marco Specialties which >>>>>>>> sources them from Cointaker. :) So... yep, these are
non-ghosting, I suspect.
This doesn't strike me as the "ghosting" I would imagine since >>>>>>>> the issue is not universal. It's quite literally just a few
lights in the whole system. Two flashers that flash whenever I >>>>>>>> use the flippers, and a couple in the backbox that come on dim >>>>>>>> alongside others. Otherwise, I don't see anything with a low
glow, etc... most are on or off just fine save the few
exceptions noted.
This is why I continue to wonder if there is "leakage" from some >>>>>>>> component breaking down a bit - especially in the case of the >>>>>>>> two flashers that happen to blink when I hit the flippers
(otherwise are off or full on when called upon properly).
Granted, all of this is my imagination based on the terminology >>>>>>>> or my own descriptions.
Best,
- Aaron
The non-ghosting LEDs are quite a bit more expensive than regular >>>>>>> ones, so you should be able to find out what you have by the price. >>>>>>>
I should have pointed out that the LED OCD board has advantages >>>>>>> beyond stopping the ghosting. It will make dimming effects work >>>>>>> correctly. For example the shield strength indicators in ST:TNG. >>>>>>>
- Kerry
Williams system 11B should not need anti-ghosting LEDs. I have
converted several without an issue. But I have used Pinball Life >>>>>> standard LEDs and not Cointaker. I am surprised that Cointaker / >>>>>> Marco stuck you with the more expensive non-ghosting LEDs.
Recently, I had no issues with an F14 with regular LEDs.
However, there are lists supposedly based on real world experience >>>>>> where High Speed (11), Swords of Fury (11B) do not ghost, but
Pinbot (11A) and Whirlwind (11B) do. Go figure.
https://www.pinballbulbs.com/ghosting-list
I don't know if to trust this information. Without testing using >>>>>> the same brand LED, it maybe unreliable.
It is possible that there is some other action, like a motor or a >>>>>> switch that arcs that could be inducing the flickering. We see
that in many EM pins every time a solenoid fires.
The flasher issue where they flicker with the flippers sounds like >>>>>> the induction of noise that might be causing the flickering? I
think Williams took out the 'warming resistor' by 11B, so I assume >>>>>> that is not contributing? Does the EOS switch have the cap on it? >>>>>>
John, I thought, from visual inspection, that the non-ghosting was >>>>>> accomplished by inserting a resistor in series with the LED. But >>>>>> I could be completely wrong in this. It maybe time to dissect an >>>>>> anti-ghosting LED.
A resistor will only dim the LED, and if you look inside any LED
for our games you will find a dropping resistor already there,
otherwise the LEDs would burn out!
John :-#)#
Sorry John. I was rather lazy in my response. Of course you are
correct for a LED.
Regular LEDs have a Vf of anywhere from ~2V to ~4.5 and would
require a resistor in series.
SMD LEDs (which I have no design experience) like the high power
3535 Vf can be over 6V. I have no idea if they need a resistor or
not in a nominal 6V pinball circuit.
The 5050 SMD LED seems to be the most popular these days and it has
a max Vf of 3.4 V and 3 diodes per chip. Dual SMDs are common.
Would dual 5050's be in series without the resistor?
I took a photo of a 'naked' flexible SMD LED (see link). The SMD
LED has three contacts on each side, which might coincide with the 3
diodes?
There are also three components on the back, with three leads each.
There is an additional larger component in the center that is marked
"100" and "6V". This larger component might be 'piggybacked' on the
back of a sort of 'wafer'.
That is a 100mfd/6V capacitor. That is the only way I can see
reducing the flickering - inexpensively.
The anti-ghosting 555 SMD LEDs have two resistors, one on each leg,
in addition to what looks like these components.
Without dissecting a regular (not non-ghosting) SMD LED, I do not
see a resistor, but there could be one or two.
If you, or anyone, can help explain how these LEDs are non-ghosting,
I would appreciate the explanation.
https://flic.kr/s/aHsmMYErKr
Cap across the LED, dropping resistor (if present) between LED and
power.
John :-#)#
Thanks John. I am terrible at identifying SMD parts.
Not sure what the other three components are.
Look like transistors...
John :-#)#
On 5/4/20 6:07 PM, John Robertson wrote:
On 2020/05/04 2:03 p.m., LexingtonVAPin wrote:
On 5/3/20 5:56 PM, John Robertson wrote:
On 2020/05/03 10:03 a.m., LexingtonVAPin wrote:
On 5/1/20 3:18 PM, John Robertson wrote:
On 2020/05/01 12:01 p.m., LexingtonVAPin wrote:
On 4/29/20 8:22 PM, Kerry Imming wrote:
On 4/29/2020 3:59 PM, Aaron Mahler wrote:
On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 4:28:58 PM UTC-4, Kerry Imming >>>>>>>>> wrote:
On 4/29/2020 10:56 AM, Aaron Mahler wrote:
John:
Thanks for the quick reply. To be clear, yes, I assumed >>>>>>>>>>> it wasn’t a bug so much as the LEDs not behaving the way the >>>>>>>>>>> incandescents do... just wasn’t sure if this indicated some >>>>>>>>>>> things were less than optimum in the health of the machine >>>>>>>>>>> that the incandescents hide, so to speak.
Fortunately, nothing glows constantly that shouldn’t... >>>>>>>>>>> just a few things come on at low brightness alongside the >>>>>>>>>>> things that are properly coming on full bright when triggered. >>>>>>>>>>>
I don’t find any of it problematic enough that anything >>>>>>>>>>> but a quick fix with a pretty low bar makes it worth
pursuing. The flasher firing with the flippers is the most >>>>>>>>>>> annoying one, but honestly not a big deal itself. I was >>>>>>>>>>> seeking a possible “yeah, swap out these transistors... they >>>>>>>>>>> are aging” or similar common fix if it existed.
I didn’t anticipate code changes doing it. That’s >>>>>>>>>>> interesting. I have an old EEPROM burner, so if I can find >>>>>>>>>>> relevant fixes, I probably have the things I need on hand to >>>>>>>>>>> try that. Would be a chance to add sockets if they aren’t
already there (I don’t recall), too.
Thanks - I’ll do some more research!
- Aaron
Have you tried the non-ghosting LEDs? They are available from >>>>>>>>>> many
pinball LED vendors. For example:
https://cointaker.com/products/44-47-premium-frosted
Or, the more expensive solution is the LED OCD board.
- Kerry
So, as it turns out, I bought these from Marco Specialties
which sources them from Cointaker. :) So... yep, these are
non-ghosting, I suspect.
This doesn't strike me as the "ghosting" I would imagine since >>>>>>>>> the issue is not universal. It's quite literally just a few
lights in the whole system. Two flashers that flash whenever I >>>>>>>>> use the flippers, and a couple in the backbox that come on dim >>>>>>>>> alongside others. Otherwise, I don't see anything with a low
glow, etc... most are on or off just fine save the few
exceptions noted.
This is why I continue to wonder if there is "leakage" from >>>>>>>>> some component breaking down a bit - especially in the case of >>>>>>>>> the two flashers that happen to blink when I hit the flippers
(otherwise are off or full on when called upon properly).
Granted, all of this is my imagination based on the terminology >>>>>>>>> or my own descriptions.
Best,
- Aaron
The non-ghosting LEDs are quite a bit more expensive than
regular ones, so you should be able to find out what you have by >>>>>>>> the price.
I should have pointed out that the LED OCD board has advantages >>>>>>>> beyond stopping the ghosting. It will make dimming effects work
correctly. For example the shield strength indicators in ST:TNG.>>>>>>>>
- Kerry
Williams system 11B should not need anti-ghosting LEDs. I have
converted several without an issue. But I have used Pinball Life >>>>>>> standard LEDs and not Cointaker. I am surprised that Cointaker / >>>>>>> Marco stuck you with the more expensive non-ghosting LEDs.
Recently, I had no issues with an F14 with regular LEDs.
However, there are lists supposedly based on real world
experience where High Speed (11), Swords of Fury (11B) do not
ghost, but Pinbot (11A) and Whirlwind (11B) do. Go figure.
https://www.pinballbulbs.com/ghosting-list
I don't know if to trust this information. Without testing using >>>>>>> the same brand LED, it maybe unreliable.
It is possible that there is some other action, like a motor or a >>>>>>> switch that arcs that could be inducing the flickering. We see >>>>>>> that in many EM pins every time a solenoid fires.
The flasher issue where they flicker with the flippers sounds
like the induction of noise that might be causing the
flickering? I think Williams took out the 'warming resistor' by >>>>>>> 11B, so I assume that is not contributing? Does the EOS switch >>>>>>> have the cap on it?
John, I thought, from visual inspection, that the non-ghosting
was accomplished by inserting a resistor in series with the LED. >>>>>>> But I could be completely wrong in this. It maybe time to
dissect an anti-ghosting LED.
A resistor will only dim the LED, and if you look inside any LED
for our games you will find a dropping resistor already there,
otherwise the LEDs would burn out!
John :-#)#
Sorry John. I was rather lazy in my response. Of course you are >>>>> correct for a LED.
Regular LEDs have a Vf of anywhere from ~2V to ~4.5 and would
require a resistor in series.
SMD LEDs (which I have no design experience) like the high power
3535 Vf can be over 6V. I have no idea if they need a resistor or >>>>> not in a nominal 6V pinball circuit.
The 5050 SMD LED seems to be the most popular these days and it has >>>>> a max Vf of 3.4 V and 3 diodes per chip. Dual SMDs are common.
Would dual 5050's be in series without the resistor?
I took a photo of a 'naked' flexible SMD LED (see link). The SMD
LED has three contacts on each side, which might coincide with the >>>>> 3 diodes?
There are also three components on the back, with three leads each. >>>>> There is an additional larger component in the center that is
marked "100" and "6V". This larger component might be 'piggybacked' >>>>> on the back of a sort of 'wafer'.
That is a 100mfd/6V capacitor. That is the only way I can see
reducing the flickering - inexpensively.
The anti-ghosting 555 SMD LEDs have two resistors, one on each leg, >>>>> in addition to what looks like these components.
Without dissecting a regular (not non-ghosting) SMD LED, I do not
see a resistor, but there could be one or two.
If you, or anyone, can help explain how these LEDs are
non-ghosting, I would appreciate the explanation.
https://flic.kr/s/aHsmMYErKr
Cap across the LED, dropping resistor (if present) between LED and
power.
John :-#)#
Thanks John. I am terrible at identifying SMD parts.
Not sure what the other three components are.
Look like transistors...
John :-#)#
I was guessing that too. I looked up some LED SMD circuits and for LED strips with lots of LEDs in series, they use FETs to limit the current > in case any LEDs fail shorted.
But that does not seem to be applicable here.
No wonder these non-ghosting LEDs cost almost twice as much.
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