• LED guidance: leaky matrix or other issue? (Williams Space Station)

    From Aaron Mahler@amahler@halfpress.com to rec.games.pinball on Wednesday, April 29, 2020 07:29:11
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    Greetings!
    I’ve just finished doing an LED swap out of all the lights in a Space Station. It looks pretty fantastic and the “condition green” GI is amazing for sure... almost wasn’t aware that existed before now and I’ve owned this machine for years. I also did the NVRAM replacement of the static RAM, saying goodbye to “adjustment failure” on startup and risky battery hassles. Lastly, replaced my flickering / segments-starting-to-fail score display with a RottenDog LED drop in replacement that looks fantastic.
    So, yes, I’m trying to really refresh this machine despite it being in generally good shape as long as I’ve owned it.
    I do note that there are a few cases where I’m getting partial LED lighting beyond the light that should be on (mostly among the lights in the ring of the space station in the backbox). They light individually properly, but a little leakage is happening in light X when light Y should be the only one active. It’s not universal - just a few I’ve noticed in play and in light tests.
    On a related note: two of my flashers (back left corner and the next closest diagonally nearest the rotating space station) go off slightly with every firing of the flippers.
    My assumption is the low voltage requirements/higher sensitivity of the LEDs is showing me “leakage” of sorts somewhere in the system? Would this be breakdown of some of the transistors or similar? Should there be caps or resistors perhaps added somewhere to smooth things out?
    Thought I might call on the collective wisdom here for guidance before I go down a dozen wrong paths. I’ve done some initial searching on the topic, but coming up with a wide array of issues that I don’t -think- are quite the same.
    Thanks!
    - Aaron
    --- Synchronet 3.17c-Win32 NewsLink 1.112
  • From John Robertson@spam@flippers.com to rec.games.pinball on Wednesday, April 29, 2020 08:42:55
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On 2020/04/29 7:29 a.m., Aaron Mahler wrote:
    Greetings!

    I’ve just finished doing an LED swap out of all the lights in a Space Station. It looks pretty fantastic and the “condition green” GI is amazing for sure... almost wasn’t aware that existed before now and I’ve owned this machine for years. I also did the NVRAM replacement of the static RAM, saying goodbye to “adjustment failure” on startup and risky battery hassles. Lastly, replaced my flickering / segments-starting-to-fail score display with a RottenDog LED drop in replacement that looks fantastic.

    So, yes, I’m trying to really refresh this machine despite it being in generally good shape as long as I’ve owned it.

    I do note that there are a few cases where I’m getting partial LED lighting beyond the light that should be on (mostly among the lights in the ring of the space station in the backbox). They light individually properly, but a little leakage is happening in light X when light Y should be the only one active. It’s not universal - just a few I’ve noticed in play and in light tests.

    On a related note: two of my flashers (back left corner and the next closest diagonally nearest the rotating space station) go off slightly with every firing of the flippers.

    My assumption is the low voltage requirements/higher sensitivity of the LEDs is showing me “leakage” of sorts somewhere in the system? Would this be breakdown of some of the transistors or similar? Should there be caps or resistors perhaps added somewhere to smooth things out?

    Thought I might call on the collective wisdom here for guidance before I go down a dozen wrong paths. I’ve done some initial searching on the topic, but coming up with a wide array of issues that I don’t -think- are quite the same.

    Thanks!
    - Aaron

    These machines were not designed with LED characteristics in mind. The
    slight flicker you see is not visible at all with incandescent lamps.
    To cure it you have to rework the logic code or do some tinkering with
    the lighting circuits including trying different types of LEDs looking
    for a style that shows less of the 'keep-alive' behaviour (look it up).
    There are patches for the code for WPC machines, and, I suspect, earlier systems - but I haven't bothered to track them down. I'm sure others can enlighten you for those.
    In other words, this is a feature of incandescent lamps, not a bug!
    John :-#)#
    --
    (Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
    John's Jukes Ltd.
    MOVED to #7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3
    (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
    www.flippers.com
    "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
    --- Synchronet 3.17c-Win32 NewsLink 1.112
  • From Aaron Mahler@amahler@halfpress.com to rec.games.pinball on Wednesday, April 29, 2020 08:56:24
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    John:
    Thanks for the quick reply. To be clear, yes, I assumed it wasn’t a bug so much as the LEDs not behaving the way the incandescents do... just wasn’t sure if this indicated some things were less than optimum in the health of the machine that the incandescents hide, so to speak.
    Fortunately, nothing glows constantly that shouldn’t... just a few things come on at low brightness alongside the things that are properly coming on full bright when triggered.
    I don’t find any of it problematic enough that anything but a quick fix with a pretty low bar makes it worth pursuing. The flasher firing with the flippers is the most annoying one, but honestly not a big deal itself. I was seeking a possible “yeah, swap out these transistors... they are aging” or similar common fix if it existed.
    I didn’t anticipate code changes doing it. That’s interesting. I have an old EEPROM burner, so if I can find relevant fixes, I probably have the things I need on hand to try that. Would be a chance to add sockets if they aren’t already there (I don’t recall), too.
    Thanks - I’ll do some more research!
    - Aaron
    --- Synchronet 3.17c-Win32 NewsLink 1.112
  • From Kerry Imming@kcimming@pobox.com to rec.games.pinball on Wednesday, April 29, 2020 15:28:51
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On 4/29/2020 10:56 AM, Aaron Mahler wrote:
    John:

    Thanks for the quick reply. To be clear, yes, I assumed it wasn’t a bug so much as the LEDs not behaving the way the incandescents do... just wasn’t sure if this indicated some things were less than optimum in the health of the machine that the incandescents hide, so to speak.

    Fortunately, nothing glows constantly that shouldn’t... just a few things come on at low brightness alongside the things that are properly coming on full bright when triggered.

    I don’t find any of it problematic enough that anything but a quick fix with a pretty low bar makes it worth pursuing. The flasher firing with the flippers is the most annoying one, but honestly not a big deal itself. I was seeking a possible “yeah, swap out these transistors... they are aging” or similar common fix if it existed.

    I didn’t anticipate code changes doing it. That’s interesting. I have an old EEPROM burner, so if I can find relevant fixes, I probably have the things I need on hand to try that. Would be a chance to add sockets if they aren’t already there (I don’t recall), too.

    Thanks - I’ll do some more research!
    - Aaron


    Have you tried the non-ghosting LEDs? They are available from many
    pinball LED vendors. For example: https://cointaker.com/products/44-47-premium-frosted

    Or, the more expensive solution is the LED OCD board.

    - Kerry
    --- Synchronet 3.17c-Win32 NewsLink 1.112
  • From John Robertson@spam@flippers.com to rec.games.pinball on Wednesday, April 29, 2020 13:39:36
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On 2020/04/29 1:28 p.m., Kerry Imming wrote:
    On 4/29/2020 10:56 AM, Aaron Mahler wrote:
    John:

       Thanks for the quick reply. To be clear, yes, I assumed it wasn’t a >> bug so much as the LEDs not behaving the way the incandescents do...
    just wasn’t sure if this indicated some things were less than optimum
    in the health of the machine that the incandescents hide, so to speak.>>
      Fortunately, nothing glows constantly that shouldn’t... just a few
    things come on at low brightness alongside the things that are
    properly coming on full bright when triggered.

       I don’t find any of it problematic enough that anything but a quick >> fix with a pretty low bar makes it worth pursuing. The flasher firing >> with the flippers is the most annoying one, but honestly not a big
    deal itself. I was seeking a possible “yeah, swap out these
    transistors... they are aging” or similar common fix if it existed.

       I didn’t anticipate code changes doing it. That’s interesting. I >> have an old EEPROM burner, so if I can find relevant fixes, I probably
    have the things I need on hand to try that. Would be a chance to add
    sockets if they aren’t already there (I don’t recall), too.

    Thanks - I’ll do some more research!
      - Aaron


    Have you tried the non-ghosting LEDs?  They are available from many
    pinball LED vendors.  For example: https://cointaker.com/products/44-47-premium-frosted

    Or, the more expensive solution is the LED OCD board.

    - Kerry
    I suspect the non-ghosting LEDs have a small capacitor inside. Which is
    just waiting for trouble a few years down the road IMHO. I'd have to
    take one apart though to be sure!
    It is just how I'd first try to solve the problem...I could easily be
    wrong though.
    John :-#)#
    --
    (Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
    John's Jukes Ltd.
    MOVED to #7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3
    (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
    www.flippers.com
    "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
    --- Synchronet 3.17c-Win32 NewsLink 1.112
  • From Aaron Mahler@amahler@halfpress.com to rec.games.pinball on Wednesday, April 29, 2020 13:59:44
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 4:28:58 PM UTC-4, Kerry Imming wrote:
    On 4/29/2020 10:56 AM, Aaron Mahler wrote:
    John:

    Thanks for the quick reply. To be clear, yes, I assumed it wasn’t a bug so much as the LEDs not behaving the way the incandescents do... just wasn’t sure if this indicated some things were less than optimum in the health of the machine that the incandescents hide, so to speak.

    Fortunately, nothing glows constantly that shouldn’t... just a few things come on at low brightness alongside the things that are properly coming on full bright when triggered.

    I don’t find any of it problematic enough that anything but a quick fix with a pretty low bar makes it worth pursuing. The flasher firing with the flippers is the most annoying one, but honestly not a big deal itself. I was seeking a possible “yeah, swap out these transistors... they are aging” or similar common fix if it existed.

    I didn’t anticipate code changes doing it. That’s interesting. I have an old EEPROM burner, so if I can find relevant fixes, I probably have the things I need on hand to try that. Would be a chance to add sockets if they aren’t already there (I don’t recall), too.

    Thanks - I’ll do some more research!
    - Aaron


    Have you tried the non-ghosting LEDs? They are available from many
    pinball LED vendors. For example: https://cointaker.com/products/44-47-premium-frosted

    Or, the more expensive solution is the LED OCD board.

    - Kerry
    So, as it turns out, I bought these from Marco Specialties which sources them from Cointaker. :) So... yep, these are non-ghosting, I suspect.
    This doesn't strike me as the "ghosting" I would imagine since the issue is not universal. It's quite literally just a few lights in the whole system. Two flashers that flash whenever I use the flippers, and a couple in the backbox that come on dim alongside others. Otherwise, I don't see anything with a low glow, etc... most are on or off just fine save the few exceptions noted.
    This is why I continue to wonder if there is "leakage" from some component breaking down a bit - especially in the case of the two flashers that happen to blink when I hit the flippers (otherwise are off or full on when called upon properly). Granted, all of this is my imagination based on the terminology or my own descriptions.
    Best,
    - Aaron
    --- Synchronet 3.17c-Win32 NewsLink 1.112
  • From Kerry Imming@kcimming@pobox.com to rec.games.pinball on Wednesday, April 29, 2020 19:22:43
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On 4/29/2020 3:59 PM, Aaron Mahler wrote:
    On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 4:28:58 PM UTC-4, Kerry Imming wrote:
    On 4/29/2020 10:56 AM, Aaron Mahler wrote:
    John:

    Thanks for the quick reply. To be clear, yes, I assumed it wasn’t a bug so much as the LEDs not behaving the way the incandescents do... just wasn’t sure if this indicated some things were less than optimum in the health of the machine that the incandescents hide, so to speak.

    Fortunately, nothing glows constantly that shouldn’t... just a few things come on at low brightness alongside the things that are properly coming on full bright when triggered.

    I don’t find any of it problematic enough that anything but a quick fix with a pretty low bar makes it worth pursuing. The flasher firing with the flippers is the most annoying one, but honestly not a big deal itself. I was seeking a possible “yeah, swap out these transistors... they are aging” or similar common fix if it existed.

    I didn’t anticipate code changes doing it. That’s interesting. I have an old EEPROM burner, so if I can find relevant fixes, I probably have the things I need on hand to try that. Would be a chance to add sockets if they aren’t already there (I don’t recall), too.

    Thanks - I’ll do some more research!
    - Aaron


    Have you tried the non-ghosting LEDs? They are available from many
    pinball LED vendors. For example:
    https://cointaker.com/products/44-47-premium-frosted

    Or, the more expensive solution is the LED OCD board.

    - Kerry

    So, as it turns out, I bought these from Marco Specialties which sources them from Cointaker. :) So... yep, these are non-ghosting, I suspect.

    This doesn't strike me as the "ghosting" I would imagine since the issue is not universal. It's quite literally just a few lights in the whole system. Two flashers that flash whenever I use the flippers, and a couple in the backbox that come on dim alongside others. Otherwise, I don't see anything with a low glow, etc... most are on or off just fine save the few exceptions noted.

    This is why I continue to wonder if there is "leakage" from some component breaking down a bit - especially in the case of the two flashers that happen to blink when I hit the flippers (otherwise are off or full on when called upon properly). Granted, all of this is my imagination based on the terminology or my own descriptions.

    Best,
    - Aaron


    The non-ghosting LEDs are quite a bit more expensive than regular ones,
    so you should be able to find out what you have by the price.

    I should have pointed out that the LED OCD board has advantages beyond stopping the ghosting. It will make dimming effects work correctly.
    For example the shield strength indicators in ST:TNG.

    - Kerry
    --- Synchronet 3.17c-Win32 NewsLink 1.112
  • From LexingtonVAPin@lhammer610@yahoo.com to rec.games.pinball on Friday, May 01, 2020 15:01:51
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On 4/29/20 8:22 PM, Kerry Imming wrote:
    On 4/29/2020 3:59 PM, Aaron Mahler wrote:
    On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 4:28:58 PM UTC-4, Kerry Imming wrote:
    On 4/29/2020 10:56 AM, Aaron Mahler wrote:
    John:

        Thanks for the quick reply. To be clear, yes, I assumed it
    wasn’t a bug so much as the LEDs not behaving the way the
    incandescents do... just wasn’t sure if this indicated some things
    were less than optimum in the health of the machine that the
    incandescents hide, so to speak.

       Fortunately, nothing glows constantly that shouldn’t... just a >>>> few things come on at low brightness alongside the things that are
    properly coming on full bright when triggered.

        I don’t find any of it problematic enough that anything but a >>>> quick fix with a pretty low bar makes it worth pursuing. The flasher
    firing with the flippers is the most annoying one, but honestly not
    a big deal itself. I was seeking a possible “yeah, swap out these
    transistors... they are aging” or similar common fix if it existed.

        I didn’t anticipate code changes doing it. That’s interesting. I
    have an old EEPROM burner, so if I can find relevant fixes, I
    probably have the things I need on hand to try that. Would be a
    chance to add sockets if they aren’t already there (I don’t recall), >>>> too.

    Thanks - I’ll do some more research!
       - Aaron


    Have you tried the non-ghosting LEDs?  They are available from many
    pinball LED vendors.  For example:
    https://cointaker.com/products/44-47-premium-frosted

    Or, the more expensive solution is the LED OCD board.

    - Kerry

    So, as it turns out, I bought these from Marco Specialties which
    sources them from Cointaker. :) So... yep, these are non-ghosting, I
    suspect.

    This doesn't strike me as the "ghosting" I would imagine since the
    issue is not universal. It's quite literally just a few lights in the
    whole system. Two flashers that flash whenever I use the flippers, and
    a couple in the backbox that come on dim alongside others. Otherwise,
    I don't see anything with a low glow, etc... most are on or off just
    fine save the few exceptions noted.

    This is why I continue to wonder if there is "leakage" from some
    component breaking down a bit - especially in the case of the two
    flashers that happen to blink when I hit the flippers (otherwise are
    off or full on when called upon properly). Granted, all of this is my
    imagination based on the terminology or my own descriptions.

    Best,
      - Aaron


    The non-ghosting LEDs are quite a bit more expensive than regular ones,
    so you should be able to find out what you have by the price.

    I should have pointed out that the LED OCD board has advantages beyond stopping the ghosting.  It will make dimming effects work correctly. For example the shield strength indicators in ST:TNG.

    - Kerry

    Williams system 11B should not need anti-ghosting LEDs. I have converted several without an issue. But I have used Pinball Life standard LEDs
    and not Cointaker. I am surprised that Cointaker / Marco stuck you with
    the more expensive non-ghosting LEDs.

    Recently, I had no issues with an F14 with regular LEDs.

    However, there are lists supposedly based on real world experience where
    High Speed (11), Swords of Fury (11B) do not ghost, but Pinbot (11A) and Whirlwind (11B) do. Go figure.

    https://www.pinballbulbs.com/ghosting-list

    I don't know if to trust this information. Without testing using the
    same brand LED, it maybe unreliable.

    It is possible that there is some other action, like a motor or a switch
    that arcs that could be inducing the flickering. We see that in many EM
    pins every time a solenoid fires.

    The flasher issue where they flicker with the flippers sounds like the induction of noise that might be causing the flickering? I think
    Williams took out the 'warming resistor' by 11B, so I assume that is not contributing? Does the EOS switch have the cap on it?

    John, I thought, from visual inspection, that the non-ghosting was accomplished by inserting a resistor in series with the LED. But I
    could be completely wrong in this. It maybe time to dissect an
    anti-ghosting LED.

    --
    http://orcalcoast.com/
    --- Synchronet 3.17c-Win32 NewsLink 1.112
  • From John Robertson@spam@flippers.com to rec.games.pinball on Friday, May 01, 2020 12:18:51
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On 2020/05/01 12:01 p.m., LexingtonVAPin wrote:
    On 4/29/20 8:22 PM, Kerry Imming wrote:
    On 4/29/2020 3:59 PM, Aaron Mahler wrote:
    On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 4:28:58 PM UTC-4, Kerry Imming wrote:>>>> On 4/29/2020 10:56 AM, Aaron Mahler wrote:
    John:

        Thanks for the quick reply. To be clear, yes, I assumed it
    wasn’t a bug so much as the LEDs not behaving the way the
    incandescents do... just wasn’t sure if this indicated some things >>>>> were less than optimum in the health of the machine that the
    incandescents hide, so to speak.

       Fortunately, nothing glows constantly that shouldn’t... just a >>>>> few things come on at low brightness alongside the things that are >>>>> properly coming on full bright when triggered.

        I don’t find any of it problematic enough that anything but a >>>>> quick fix with a pretty low bar makes it worth pursuing. The
    flasher firing with the flippers is the most annoying one, but
    honestly not a big deal itself. I was seeking a possible “yeah,
    swap out these transistors... they are aging” or similar common fix >>>>> if it existed.

        I didn’t anticipate code changes doing it. That’s interesting.
    I have an old EEPROM burner, so if I can find relevant fixes, I
    probably have the things I need on hand to try that. Would be a
    chance to add sockets if they aren’t already there (I don’t
    recall), too.

    Thanks - I’ll do some more research!
       - Aaron


    Have you tried the non-ghosting LEDs?  They are available from many
    pinball LED vendors.  For example:
    https://cointaker.com/products/44-47-premium-frosted

    Or, the more expensive solution is the LED OCD board.

    - Kerry

    So, as it turns out, I bought these from Marco Specialties which
    sources them from Cointaker. :) So... yep, these are non-ghosting, I >>> suspect.

    This doesn't strike me as the "ghosting" I would imagine since the
    issue is not universal. It's quite literally just a few lights in the
    whole system. Two flashers that flash whenever I use the flippers,
    and a couple in the backbox that come on dim alongside others.
    Otherwise, I don't see anything with a low glow, etc... most are on
    or off just fine save the few exceptions noted.

    This is why I continue to wonder if there is "leakage" from some
    component breaking down a bit - especially in the case of the two
    flashers that happen to blink when I hit the flippers (otherwise are >>> off or full on when called upon properly). Granted, all of this is my
    imagination based on the terminology or my own descriptions.

    Best,
      - Aaron


    The non-ghosting LEDs are quite a bit more expensive than regular
    ones, so you should be able to find out what you have by the price.

    I should have pointed out that the LED OCD board has advantages beyond
    stopping the ghosting.  It will make dimming effects work correctly.
    For example the shield strength indicators in ST:TNG.

    - Kerry

    Williams system 11B should not need anti-ghosting LEDs. I have converted several without an issue.  But I have used Pinball Life standard LEDs
    and not Cointaker.  I am surprised that Cointaker / Marco stuck you with the more expensive non-ghosting LEDs.

    Recently, I had no issues with an F14 with regular LEDs.

    However, there are lists supposedly based on real world experience where High Speed (11), Swords of Fury (11B) do not ghost, but Pinbot (11A) and Whirlwind (11B) do. Go figure.

    https://www.pinballbulbs.com/ghosting-list

    I don't know if to trust this information.  Without testing using the
    same brand LED, it maybe unreliable.

    It is possible that there is some other action, like a motor or a switch that arcs that could be inducing the flickering.  We see that in many EM pins every time a solenoid fires.

    The flasher issue where they flicker with the flippers sounds like the > induction of noise that might be causing the flickering?  I think > Williams took out the 'warming resistor' by 11B, so I assume that is not
    contributing?  Does the EOS switch have the cap on it?

    John, I thought, from visual inspection, that the non-ghosting was accomplished by inserting a resistor in series with the LED.  But I
    could be completely wrong in this.  It maybe time to dissect an anti-ghosting LED.

    A resistor will only dim the LED, and if you look inside any LED for our games you will find a dropping resistor already there, otherwise the
    LEDs would burn out!
    John :-#)#
    --
    (Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
    John's Jukes Ltd.
    MOVED to #7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3
    (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
    www.flippers.com
    "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
    --- Synchronet 3.17c-Win32 NewsLink 1.112
  • From LexingtonVAPin@lhammer610@yahoo.com to rec.games.pinball on Sunday, May 03, 2020 13:03:44
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On 5/1/20 3:18 PM, John Robertson wrote:
    On 2020/05/01 12:01 p.m., LexingtonVAPin wrote:
    On 4/29/20 8:22 PM, Kerry Imming wrote:
    On 4/29/2020 3:59 PM, Aaron Mahler wrote:
    On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 4:28:58 PM UTC-4, Kerry Imming wrote: >>>>> On 4/29/2020 10:56 AM, Aaron Mahler wrote:
    John:

        Thanks for the quick reply. To be clear, yes, I assumed it >>>>>> wasn’t a bug so much as the LEDs not behaving the way the
    incandescents do... just wasn’t sure if this indicated some things >>>>>> were less than optimum in the health of the machine that the
    incandescents hide, so to speak.

       Fortunately, nothing glows constantly that shouldn’t... just a >>>>>> few things come on at low brightness alongside the things that are >>>>>> properly coming on full bright when triggered.

        I don’t find any of it problematic enough that anything but a >>>>>> quick fix with a pretty low bar makes it worth pursuing. The
    flasher firing with the flippers is the most annoying one, but
    honestly not a big deal itself. I was seeking a possible “yeah, >>>>>> swap out these transistors... they are aging” or similar common >>>>>> fix if it existed.

        I didn’t anticipate code changes doing it. That’s interesting.
    I have an old EEPROM burner, so if I can find relevant fixes, I
    probably have the things I need on hand to try that. Would be a
    chance to add sockets if they aren’t already there (I don’t
    recall), too.

    Thanks - I’ll do some more research!
       - Aaron


    Have you tried the non-ghosting LEDs?  They are available from many >>>>> pinball LED vendors.  For example:
    https://cointaker.com/products/44-47-premium-frosted

    Or, the more expensive solution is the LED OCD board.

    - Kerry

    So, as it turns out, I bought these from Marco Specialties which
    sources them from Cointaker. :) So... yep, these are non-ghosting, I
    suspect.

    This doesn't strike me as the "ghosting" I would imagine since the
    issue is not universal. It's quite literally just a few lights in
    the whole system. Two flashers that flash whenever I use the
    flippers, and a couple in the backbox that come on dim alongside
    others. Otherwise, I don't see anything with a low glow, etc... most
    are on or off just fine save the few exceptions noted.

    This is why I continue to wonder if there is "leakage" from some
    component breaking down a bit - especially in the case of the two
    flashers that happen to blink when I hit the flippers (otherwise are
    off or full on when called upon properly). Granted, all of this is
    my imagination based on the terminology or my own descriptions.

    Best,
      - Aaron


    The non-ghosting LEDs are quite a bit more expensive than regular
    ones, so you should be able to find out what you have by the price.

    I should have pointed out that the LED OCD board has advantages
    beyond stopping the ghosting.  It will make dimming effects work
    correctly. For example the shield strength indicators in ST:TNG.

    - Kerry

    Williams system 11B should not need anti-ghosting LEDs. I have
    converted several without an issue.  But I have used Pinball Life
    standard LEDs and not Cointaker.  I am surprised that Cointaker /
    Marco stuck you with the more expensive non-ghosting LEDs.

    Recently, I had no issues with an F14 with regular LEDs.

    However, there are lists supposedly based on real world experience
    where High Speed (11), Swords of Fury (11B) do not ghost, but Pinbot
    (11A) and Whirlwind (11B) do. Go figure.

    https://www.pinballbulbs.com/ghosting-list

    I don't know if to trust this information.  Without testing using the
    same brand LED, it maybe unreliable.

    It is possible that there is some other action, like a motor or a
    switch that arcs that could be inducing the flickering.  We see that
    in many EM pins every time a solenoid fires.

    The flasher issue where they flicker with the flippers sounds like the
    induction of noise that might be causing the flickering?  I think
    Williams took out the 'warming resistor' by 11B, so I assume that is
    not contributing?  Does the EOS switch have the cap on it?

    John, I thought, from visual inspection, that the non-ghosting was
    accomplished by inserting a resistor in series with the LED.  But I
    could be completely wrong in this.  It maybe time to dissect an
    anti-ghosting LED.


    A resistor will only dim the LED, and if you look inside any LED for our games you will find a dropping resistor already there, otherwise the
    LEDs would burn out!

    John :-#)#


    Sorry John. I was rather lazy in my response. Of course you are
    correct for a LED.

    Regular LEDs have a Vf of anywhere from ~2V to ~4.5 and would require a resistor in series.

    SMD LEDs (which I have no design experience) like the high power 3535 Vf
    can be over 6V. I have no idea if they need a resistor or not in a
    nominal 6V pinball circuit.

    The 5050 SMD LED seems to be the most popular these days and it has a
    max Vf of 3.4 V and 3 diodes per chip. Dual SMDs are common. Would dual 5050's be in series without the resistor?

    I took a photo of a 'naked' flexible SMD LED (see link). The SMD LED
    has three contacts on each side, which might coincide with the 3 diodes?

    There are also three components on the back, with three leads each.
    There is an additional larger component in the center that is marked
    "100" and "6V". This larger component might be 'piggybacked' on the back
    of a sort of 'wafer'.

    The anti-ghosting 555 SMD LEDs have two resistors, one on each leg, in addition to what looks like these components.

    Without dissecting a regular (not non-ghosting) SMD LED, I do not see a resistor, but there could be one or two.

    If you, or anyone, can help explain how these LEDs are non-ghosting, I
    would appreciate the explanation.

    https://flic.kr/s/aHsmMYErKr

    --
    http://orcalcoast.com/
    --- Synchronet 3.17c-Win32 NewsLink 1.112
  • From John Robertson@spam@flippers.com to rec.games.pinball on Sunday, May 03, 2020 14:56:17
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On 2020/05/03 10:03 a.m., LexingtonVAPin wrote:
    On 5/1/20 3:18 PM, John Robertson wrote:
    On 2020/05/01 12:01 p.m., LexingtonVAPin wrote:
    On 4/29/20 8:22 PM, Kerry Imming wrote:
    On 4/29/2020 3:59 PM, Aaron Mahler wrote:
    On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 4:28:58 PM UTC-4, Kerry Imming wrote: >>>>>> On 4/29/2020 10:56 AM, Aaron Mahler wrote:
    John:

        Thanks for the quick reply. To be clear, yes, I assumed it >>>>>>> wasn’t a bug so much as the LEDs not behaving the way the
    incandescents do... just wasn’t sure if this indicated some
    things were less than optimum in the health of the machine that >>>>>>> the incandescents hide, so to speak.

       Fortunately, nothing glows constantly that shouldn’t... just a >>>>>>> few things come on at low brightness alongside the things that
    are properly coming on full bright when triggered.

        I don’t find any of it problematic enough that anything but a >>>>>>> quick fix with a pretty low bar makes it worth pursuing. The
    flasher firing with the flippers is the most annoying one, but
    honestly not a big deal itself. I was seeking a possible “yeah, >>>>>>> swap out these transistors... they are aging” or similar common >>>>>>> fix if it existed.

        I didn’t anticipate code changes doing it. That’s
    interesting. I have an old EEPROM burner, so if I can find
    relevant fixes, I probably have the things I need on hand to try >>>>>>> that. Would be a chance to add sockets if they aren’t already
    there (I don’t recall), too.

    Thanks - I’ll do some more research!
       - Aaron


    Have you tried the non-ghosting LEDs?  They are available from many >>>>>> pinball LED vendors.  For example:
    https://cointaker.com/products/44-47-premium-frosted

    Or, the more expensive solution is the LED OCD board.

    - Kerry

    So, as it turns out, I bought these from Marco Specialties which
    sources them from Cointaker. :) So... yep, these are non-ghosting, >>>>> I suspect.

    This doesn't strike me as the "ghosting" I would imagine since the >>>>> issue is not universal. It's quite literally just a few lights in
    the whole system. Two flashers that flash whenever I use the
    flippers, and a couple in the backbox that come on dim alongside
    others. Otherwise, I don't see anything with a low glow, etc...
    most are on or off just fine save the few exceptions noted.

    This is why I continue to wonder if there is "leakage" from some
    component breaking down a bit - especially in the case of the two
    flashers that happen to blink when I hit the flippers (otherwise
    are off or full on when called upon properly). Granted, all of this >>>>> is my imagination based on the terminology or my own descriptions.

    Best,
      - Aaron


    The non-ghosting LEDs are quite a bit more expensive than regular
    ones, so you should be able to find out what you have by the price.

    I should have pointed out that the LED OCD board has advantages
    beyond stopping the ghosting.  It will make dimming effects work
    correctly. For example the shield strength indicators in ST:TNG.

    - Kerry

    Williams system 11B should not need anti-ghosting LEDs. I have
    converted several without an issue.  But I have used Pinball Life
    standard LEDs and not Cointaker.  I am surprised that Cointaker /
    Marco stuck you with the more expensive non-ghosting LEDs.

    Recently, I had no issues with an F14 with regular LEDs.

    However, there are lists supposedly based on real world experience
    where High Speed (11), Swords of Fury (11B) do not ghost, but Pinbot >>> (11A) and Whirlwind (11B) do. Go figure.

    https://www.pinballbulbs.com/ghosting-list

    I don't know if to trust this information.  Without testing using the
    same brand LED, it maybe unreliable.

    It is possible that there is some other action, like a motor or a
    switch that arcs that could be inducing the flickering.  We see that
    in many EM pins every time a solenoid fires.

    The flasher issue where they flicker with the flippers sounds like
    the induction of noise that might be causing the flickering?  I think
    Williams took out the 'warming resistor' by 11B, so I assume that is >>> not contributing?  Does the EOS switch have the cap on it?

    John, I thought, from visual inspection, that the non-ghosting was
    accomplished by inserting a resistor in series with the LED.  But I
    could be completely wrong in this.  It maybe time to dissect an >>> anti-ghosting LED.


    A resistor will only dim the LED, and if you look inside any LED for
    our games you will find a dropping resistor already there, otherwise
    the LEDs would burn out!

    John :-#)#


    Sorry John.  I was rather lazy in my response.  Of course you are
    correct for a LED.

    Regular LEDs have a Vf of anywhere from ~2V to ~4.5 and would require a resistor in series.

    SMD LEDs (which I have no design experience) like the high power 3535 Vf
    can be over 6V.  I have no idea if they need a resistor or not in a
    nominal 6V pinball circuit.

    The 5050 SMD LED seems to be the most popular these days and it has a
    max Vf of 3.4 V and 3 diodes per chip.  Dual SMDs are common. Would dual 5050's be in series without the resistor?

    I took a photo of a 'naked' flexible SMD LED (see link).  The SMD LED
    has three contacts on each side, which might coincide with the 3 diodes?

    There are also three components on the back, with three leads each.
    There is an additional larger component in the center that is marked
    "100" and "6V". This larger component might be 'piggybacked' on the back
    of a sort of 'wafer'.
    That is a 100mfd/6V capacitor. That is the only way I can see reducing
    the flickering - inexpensively.

    The anti-ghosting 555 SMD LEDs have two resistors, one on each leg, in > addition to what looks like these components.

    Without dissecting a regular (not non-ghosting) SMD LED, I do not see a resistor, but there could be one or two.

    If you, or anyone, can help explain how these LEDs are non-ghosting, I > would appreciate the explanation.

    https://flic.kr/s/aHsmMYErKr

    Cap across the LED, dropping resistor (if present) between LED and power.John :-#)#
    --
    (Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
    John's Jukes Ltd.
    MOVED to #7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3
    (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
    www.flippers.com
    "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
    --- Synchronet 3.17c-Win32 NewsLink 1.112
  • From LexingtonVAPin@lhammer610@yahoo.com to rec.games.pinball on Monday, May 04, 2020 17:03:30
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On 5/3/20 5:56 PM, John Robertson wrote:
    On 2020/05/03 10:03 a.m., LexingtonVAPin wrote:
    On 5/1/20 3:18 PM, John Robertson wrote:
    On 2020/05/01 12:01 p.m., LexingtonVAPin wrote:
    On 4/29/20 8:22 PM, Kerry Imming wrote:
    On 4/29/2020 3:59 PM, Aaron Mahler wrote:
    On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 4:28:58 PM UTC-4, Kerry Imming wrote: >>>>>>> On 4/29/2020 10:56 AM, Aaron Mahler wrote:
    John:

        Thanks for the quick reply. To be clear, yes, I assumed it >>>>>>>> wasn’t a bug so much as the LEDs not behaving the way the
    incandescents do... just wasn’t sure if this indicated some >>>>>>>> things were less than optimum in the health of the machine that >>>>>>>> the incandescents hide, so to speak.

       Fortunately, nothing glows constantly that shouldn’t... just >>>>>>>> a few things come on at low brightness alongside the things that >>>>>>>> are properly coming on full bright when triggered.

        I don’t find any of it problematic enough that anything but >>>>>>>> a quick fix with a pretty low bar makes it worth pursuing. The >>>>>>>> flasher firing with the flippers is the most annoying one, but >>>>>>>> honestly not a big deal itself. I was seeking a possible “yeah, >>>>>>>> swap out these transistors... they are aging” or similar common >>>>>>>> fix if it existed.

        I didn’t anticipate code changes doing it. That’s
    interesting. I have an old EEPROM burner, so if I can find
    relevant fixes, I probably have the things I need on hand to try >>>>>>>> that. Would be a chance to add sockets if they aren’t already >>>>>>>> there (I don’t recall), too.

    Thanks - I’ll do some more research!
       - Aaron


    Have you tried the non-ghosting LEDs?  They are available from many >>>>>>> pinball LED vendors.  For example:
    https://cointaker.com/products/44-47-premium-frosted

    Or, the more expensive solution is the LED OCD board.

    - Kerry

    So, as it turns out, I bought these from Marco Specialties which
    sources them from Cointaker. :) So... yep, these are non-ghosting, >>>>>> I suspect.

    This doesn't strike me as the "ghosting" I would imagine since the >>>>>> issue is not universal. It's quite literally just a few lights in >>>>>> the whole system. Two flashers that flash whenever I use the
    flippers, and a couple in the backbox that come on dim alongside
    others. Otherwise, I don't see anything with a low glow, etc...
    most are on or off just fine save the few exceptions noted.

    This is why I continue to wonder if there is "leakage" from some
    component breaking down a bit - especially in the case of the two >>>>>> flashers that happen to blink when I hit the flippers (otherwise
    are off or full on when called upon properly). Granted, all of
    this is my imagination based on the terminology or my own
    descriptions.

    Best,
      - Aaron


    The non-ghosting LEDs are quite a bit more expensive than regular
    ones, so you should be able to find out what you have by the price.

    I should have pointed out that the LED OCD board has advantages
    beyond stopping the ghosting.  It will make dimming effects work
    correctly. For example the shield strength indicators in ST:TNG.

    - Kerry

    Williams system 11B should not need anti-ghosting LEDs. I have
    converted several without an issue.  But I have used Pinball Life
    standard LEDs and not Cointaker.  I am surprised that Cointaker /
    Marco stuck you with the more expensive non-ghosting LEDs.

    Recently, I had no issues with an F14 with regular LEDs.

    However, there are lists supposedly based on real world experience
    where High Speed (11), Swords of Fury (11B) do not ghost, but Pinbot
    (11A) and Whirlwind (11B) do. Go figure.

    https://www.pinballbulbs.com/ghosting-list

    I don't know if to trust this information.  Without testing using
    the same brand LED, it maybe unreliable.

    It is possible that there is some other action, like a motor or a
    switch that arcs that could be inducing the flickering.  We see that >>>> in many EM pins every time a solenoid fires.

    The flasher issue where they flicker with the flippers sounds like
    the induction of noise that might be causing the flickering?  I
    think Williams took out the 'warming resistor' by 11B, so I assume
    that is not contributing?  Does the EOS switch have the cap on it?

    John, I thought, from visual inspection, that the non-ghosting was
    accomplished by inserting a resistor in series with the LED.  But I
    could be completely wrong in this.  It maybe time to dissect an
    anti-ghosting LED.


    A resistor will only dim the LED, and if you look inside any LED for
    our games you will find a dropping resistor already there, otherwise
    the LEDs would burn out!

    John :-#)#


    Sorry John.  I was rather lazy in my response.  Of course you are
    correct for a LED.

    Regular LEDs have a Vf of anywhere from ~2V to ~4.5 and would require
    a resistor in series.

    SMD LEDs (which I have no design experience) like the high power 3535
    Vf can be over 6V.  I have no idea if they need a resistor or not in a
    nominal 6V pinball circuit.

    The 5050 SMD LED seems to be the most popular these days and it has a
    max Vf of 3.4 V and 3 diodes per chip.  Dual SMDs are common. Would
    dual 5050's be in series without the resistor?

    I took a photo of a 'naked' flexible SMD LED (see link).  The SMD LED
    has three contacts on each side, which might coincide with the 3 diodes?

    There are also three components on the back, with three leads each.
    There is an additional larger component in the center that is marked
    "100" and "6V". This larger component might be 'piggybacked' on the
    back of a sort of 'wafer'.

    That is a 100mfd/6V capacitor. That is the only way I can see reducing
    the flickering - inexpensively.


    The anti-ghosting 555 SMD LEDs have two resistors, one on each leg, in
    addition to what looks like these components.

    Without dissecting a regular (not non-ghosting) SMD LED, I do not see
    a resistor, but there could be one or two.

    If you, or anyone, can help explain how these LEDs are non-ghosting, I
    would appreciate the explanation.

    https://flic.kr/s/aHsmMYErKr


    Cap across the LED, dropping resistor (if present) between LED and power.

    John :-#)#

    Thanks John. I am terrible at identifying SMD parts.

    Not sure what the other three components are.

    --
    http://orcalcoast.com/
    --- Synchronet 3.17c-Win32 NewsLink 1.112
  • From John Robertson@spam@flippers.com to rec.games.pinball on Monday, May 04, 2020 15:07:35
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On 2020/05/04 2:03 p.m., LexingtonVAPin wrote:
    On 5/3/20 5:56 PM, John Robertson wrote:
    On 2020/05/03 10:03 a.m., LexingtonVAPin wrote:
    On 5/1/20 3:18 PM, John Robertson wrote:
    On 2020/05/01 12:01 p.m., LexingtonVAPin wrote:
    On 4/29/20 8:22 PM, Kerry Imming wrote:
    On 4/29/2020 3:59 PM, Aaron Mahler wrote:
    On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 4:28:58 PM UTC-4, Kerry Imming
    wrote:
    On 4/29/2020 10:56 AM, Aaron Mahler wrote:
    John:

        Thanks for the quick reply. To be clear, yes, I assumed it >>>>>>>>> wasn’t a bug so much as the LEDs not behaving the way the >>>>>>>>> incandescents do... just wasn’t sure if this indicated some >>>>>>>>> things were less than optimum in the health of the machine that >>>>>>>>> the incandescents hide, so to speak.

       Fortunately, nothing glows constantly that shouldn’t... just >>>>>>>>> a few things come on at low brightness alongside the things >>>>>>>>> that are properly coming on full bright when triggered.

        I don’t find any of it problematic enough that anything but >>>>>>>>> a quick fix with a pretty low bar makes it worth pursuing. The >>>>>>>>> flasher firing with the flippers is the most annoying one, but >>>>>>>>> honestly not a big deal itself. I was seeking a possible “yeah,
    swap out these transistors... they are aging” or similar common >>>>>>>>> fix if it existed.

        I didn’t anticipate code changes doing it. That’s >>>>>>>>> interesting. I have an old EEPROM burner, so if I can find
    relevant fixes, I probably have the things I need on hand to >>>>>>>>> try that. Would be a chance to add sockets if they aren’t >>>>>>>>> already there (I don’t recall), too.

    Thanks - I’ll do some more research!
       - Aaron


    Have you tried the non-ghosting LEDs?  They are available from many >>>>>>>> pinball LED vendors.  For example:
    https://cointaker.com/products/44-47-premium-frosted

    Or, the more expensive solution is the LED OCD board.

    - Kerry

    So, as it turns out, I bought these from Marco Specialties which >>>>>>> sources them from Cointaker. :) So... yep, these are
    non-ghosting, I suspect.

    This doesn't strike me as the "ghosting" I would imagine since
    the issue is not universal. It's quite literally just a few
    lights in the whole system. Two flashers that flash whenever I
    use the flippers, and a couple in the backbox that come on dim
    alongside others. Otherwise, I don't see anything with a low
    glow, etc... most are on or off just fine save the few exceptions >>>>>>> noted.

    This is why I continue to wonder if there is "leakage" from some >>>>>>> component breaking down a bit - especially in the case of the two
    flashers that happen to blink when I hit the flippers (otherwise >>>>>>> are off or full on when called upon properly). Granted, all of
    this is my imagination based on the terminology or my own
    descriptions.

    Best,
      - Aaron


    The non-ghosting LEDs are quite a bit more expensive than regular >>>>>> ones, so you should be able to find out what you have by the price.

    I should have pointed out that the LED OCD board has advantages
    beyond stopping the ghosting.  It will make dimming effects work >>>>>> correctly. For example the shield strength indicators in ST:TNG.

    - Kerry

    Williams system 11B should not need anti-ghosting LEDs. I have
    converted several without an issue.  But I have used Pinball Life
    standard LEDs and not Cointaker.  I am surprised that Cointaker /
    Marco stuck you with the more expensive non-ghosting LEDs.

    Recently, I had no issues with an F14 with regular LEDs.

    However, there are lists supposedly based on real world experience >>>>> where High Speed (11), Swords of Fury (11B) do not ghost, but
    Pinbot (11A) and Whirlwind (11B) do. Go figure.

    https://www.pinballbulbs.com/ghosting-list

    I don't know if to trust this information.  Without testing using
    the same brand LED, it maybe unreliable.

    It is possible that there is some other action, like a motor or a
    switch that arcs that could be inducing the flickering.  We see
    that in many EM pins every time a solenoid fires.

    The flasher issue where they flicker with the flippers sounds like >>>>> the induction of noise that might be causing the flickering?  I
    think Williams took out the 'warming resistor' by 11B, so I assume >>>>> that is not contributing?  Does the EOS switch have the cap on it?

    John, I thought, from visual inspection, that the non-ghosting was >>>>> accomplished by inserting a resistor in series with the LED.  But I
    could be completely wrong in this.  It maybe time to dissect an
    anti-ghosting LED.


    A resistor will only dim the LED, and if you look inside any LED for
    our games you will find a dropping resistor already there, otherwise
    the LEDs would burn out!

    John :-#)#


    Sorry John.  I was rather lazy in my response.  Of course you are
    correct for a LED.

    Regular LEDs have a Vf of anywhere from ~2V to ~4.5 and would require
    a resistor in series.

    SMD LEDs (which I have no design experience) like the high power 3535
    Vf can be over 6V.  I have no idea if they need a resistor or not in
    a nominal 6V pinball circuit.

    The 5050 SMD LED seems to be the most popular these days and it has a
    max Vf of 3.4 V and 3 diodes per chip.  Dual SMDs are common. Would
    dual 5050's be in series without the resistor?

    I took a photo of a 'naked' flexible SMD LED (see link).  The SMD LED
    has three contacts on each side, which might coincide with the 3 diodes? >>>
    There are also three components on the back, with three leads each.
    There is an additional larger component in the center that is marked >>> "100" and "6V". This larger component might be 'piggybacked' on the
    back of a sort of 'wafer'.

    That is a 100mfd/6V capacitor. That is the only way I can see reducing
    the flickering - inexpensively.


    The anti-ghosting 555 SMD LEDs have two resistors, one on each leg,
    in addition to what looks like these components.

    Without dissecting a regular (not non-ghosting) SMD LED, I do not see
    a resistor, but there could be one or two.

    If you, or anyone, can help explain how these LEDs are non-ghosting, >>> I would appreciate the explanation.

    https://flic.kr/s/aHsmMYErKr


    Cap across the LED, dropping resistor (if present) between LED and power.

    John :-#)#

    Thanks John.  I am terrible at identifying SMD parts.

    Not sure what the other three components are.

    Look like transistors...
    John :-#)#
    --
    (Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
    John's Jukes Ltd.
    MOVED to #7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3
    (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
    www.flippers.com
    "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
    --- Synchronet 3.17c-Win32 NewsLink 1.112
  • From LexingtonVAPin@lhammer610@yahoo.com to rec.games.pinball on Monday, May 04, 2020 20:19:27
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On 5/4/20 6:07 PM, John Robertson wrote:
    On 2020/05/04 2:03 p.m., LexingtonVAPin wrote:
    On 5/3/20 5:56 PM, John Robertson wrote:
    On 2020/05/03 10:03 a.m., LexingtonVAPin wrote:
    On 5/1/20 3:18 PM, John Robertson wrote:
    On 2020/05/01 12:01 p.m., LexingtonVAPin wrote:
    On 4/29/20 8:22 PM, Kerry Imming wrote:
    On 4/29/2020 3:59 PM, Aaron Mahler wrote:
    On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 4:28:58 PM UTC-4, Kerry Imming >>>>>>>> wrote:
    On 4/29/2020 10:56 AM, Aaron Mahler wrote:
    John:

        Thanks for the quick reply. To be clear, yes, I assumed it >>>>>>>>>> wasn’t a bug so much as the LEDs not behaving the way the >>>>>>>>>> incandescents do... just wasn’t sure if this indicated some >>>>>>>>>> things were less than optimum in the health of the machine >>>>>>>>>> that the incandescents hide, so to speak.

       Fortunately, nothing glows constantly that shouldn’t... >>>>>>>>>> just a few things come on at low brightness alongside the >>>>>>>>>> things that are properly coming on full bright when triggered. >>>>>>>>>>
        I don’t find any of it problematic enough that anything >>>>>>>>>> but a quick fix with a pretty low bar makes it worth pursuing. >>>>>>>>>> The flasher firing with the flippers is the most annoying one, >>>>>>>>>> but honestly not a big deal itself. I was seeking a possible >>>>>>>>>> “yeah, swap out these transistors... they are aging” or >>>>>>>>>> similar common fix if it existed.

        I didn’t anticipate code changes doing it. That’s >>>>>>>>>> interesting. I have an old EEPROM burner, so if I can find >>>>>>>>>> relevant fixes, I probably have the things I need on hand to >>>>>>>>>> try that. Would be a chance to add sockets if they aren’t >>>>>>>>>> already there (I don’t recall), too.

    Thanks - I’ll do some more research!
       - Aaron


    Have you tried the non-ghosting LEDs?  They are available from >>>>>>>>> many
    pinball LED vendors.  For example:
    https://cointaker.com/products/44-47-premium-frosted

    Or, the more expensive solution is the LED OCD board.

    - Kerry

    So, as it turns out, I bought these from Marco Specialties which >>>>>>>> sources them from Cointaker. :) So... yep, these are
    non-ghosting, I suspect.

    This doesn't strike me as the "ghosting" I would imagine since >>>>>>>> the issue is not universal. It's quite literally just a few
    lights in the whole system. Two flashers that flash whenever I >>>>>>>> use the flippers, and a couple in the backbox that come on dim >>>>>>>> alongside others. Otherwise, I don't see anything with a low
    glow, etc... most are on or off just fine save the few
    exceptions noted.

    This is why I continue to wonder if there is "leakage" from some >>>>>>>> component breaking down a bit - especially in the case of the >>>>>>>> two flashers that happen to blink when I hit the flippers
    (otherwise are off or full on when called upon properly).
    Granted, all of this is my imagination based on the terminology >>>>>>>> or my own descriptions.

    Best,
      - Aaron


    The non-ghosting LEDs are quite a bit more expensive than regular >>>>>>> ones, so you should be able to find out what you have by the price. >>>>>>>
    I should have pointed out that the LED OCD board has advantages >>>>>>> beyond stopping the ghosting.  It will make dimming effects work >>>>>>> correctly. For example the shield strength indicators in ST:TNG. >>>>>>>
    - Kerry

    Williams system 11B should not need anti-ghosting LEDs. I have
    converted several without an issue.  But I have used Pinball Life >>>>>> standard LEDs and not Cointaker.  I am surprised that Cointaker / >>>>>> Marco stuck you with the more expensive non-ghosting LEDs.

    Recently, I had no issues with an F14 with regular LEDs.

    However, there are lists supposedly based on real world experience >>>>>> where High Speed (11), Swords of Fury (11B) do not ghost, but
    Pinbot (11A) and Whirlwind (11B) do. Go figure.

    https://www.pinballbulbs.com/ghosting-list

    I don't know if to trust this information.  Without testing using >>>>>> the same brand LED, it maybe unreliable.

    It is possible that there is some other action, like a motor or a >>>>>> switch that arcs that could be inducing the flickering.  We see
    that in many EM pins every time a solenoid fires.

    The flasher issue where they flicker with the flippers sounds like >>>>>> the induction of noise that might be causing the flickering?  I
    think Williams took out the 'warming resistor' by 11B, so I assume >>>>>> that is not contributing?  Does the EOS switch have the cap on it? >>>>>>
    John, I thought, from visual inspection, that the non-ghosting was >>>>>> accomplished by inserting a resistor in series with the LED.  But >>>>>> I could be completely wrong in this.  It maybe time to dissect an >>>>>> anti-ghosting LED.


    A resistor will only dim the LED, and if you look inside any LED
    for our games you will find a dropping resistor already there,
    otherwise the LEDs would burn out!

    John :-#)#


    Sorry John.  I was rather lazy in my response.  Of course you are
    correct for a LED.

    Regular LEDs have a Vf of anywhere from ~2V to ~4.5 and would
    require a resistor in series.

    SMD LEDs (which I have no design experience) like the high power
    3535 Vf can be over 6V.  I have no idea if they need a resistor or
    not in a nominal 6V pinball circuit.

    The 5050 SMD LED seems to be the most popular these days and it has
    a max Vf of 3.4 V and 3 diodes per chip.  Dual SMDs are common.
    Would dual 5050's be in series without the resistor?

    I took a photo of a 'naked' flexible SMD LED (see link).  The SMD
    LED has three contacts on each side, which might coincide with the 3
    diodes?

    There are also three components on the back, with three leads each.
    There is an additional larger component in the center that is marked
    "100" and "6V". This larger component might be 'piggybacked' on the
    back of a sort of 'wafer'.

    That is a 100mfd/6V capacitor. That is the only way I can see
    reducing the flickering - inexpensively.


    The anti-ghosting 555 SMD LEDs have two resistors, one on each leg,
    in addition to what looks like these components.

    Without dissecting a regular (not non-ghosting) SMD LED, I do not
    see a resistor, but there could be one or two.

    If you, or anyone, can help explain how these LEDs are non-ghosting,
    I would appreciate the explanation.

    https://flic.kr/s/aHsmMYErKr


    Cap across the LED, dropping resistor (if present) between LED and
    power.

    John :-#)#

    Thanks John.  I am terrible at identifying SMD parts.

    Not sure what the other three components are.


    Look like transistors...

    John :-#)#


    I was guessing that too. I looked up some LED SMD circuits and for LED
    strips with lots of LEDs in series, they use FETs to limit the current
    in case any LEDs fail shorted.

    But that does not seem to be applicable here.

    No wonder these non-ghosting LEDs cost almost twice as much.

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    http://orcalcoast.com/
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  • From John Robertson@spam@flippers.com to rec.games.pinball on Monday, May 04, 2020 18:40:52
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On 2020/05/04 5:19 p.m., LexingtonVAPin wrote:
    On 5/4/20 6:07 PM, John Robertson wrote:
    On 2020/05/04 2:03 p.m., LexingtonVAPin wrote:
    On 5/3/20 5:56 PM, John Robertson wrote:
    On 2020/05/03 10:03 a.m., LexingtonVAPin wrote:
    On 5/1/20 3:18 PM, John Robertson wrote:
    On 2020/05/01 12:01 p.m., LexingtonVAPin wrote:
    On 4/29/20 8:22 PM, Kerry Imming wrote:
    On 4/29/2020 3:59 PM, Aaron Mahler wrote:
    On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 4:28:58 PM UTC-4, Kerry Imming >>>>>>>>> wrote:
    On 4/29/2020 10:56 AM, Aaron Mahler wrote:
    John:

        Thanks for the quick reply. To be clear, yes, I assumed >>>>>>>>>>> it wasn’t a bug so much as the LEDs not behaving the way the >>>>>>>>>>> incandescents do... just wasn’t sure if this indicated some >>>>>>>>>>> things were less than optimum in the health of the machine >>>>>>>>>>> that the incandescents hide, so to speak.

       Fortunately, nothing glows constantly that shouldn’t... >>>>>>>>>>> just a few things come on at low brightness alongside the >>>>>>>>>>> things that are properly coming on full bright when triggered. >>>>>>>>>>>
        I don’t find any of it problematic enough that anything >>>>>>>>>>> but a quick fix with a pretty low bar makes it worth
    pursuing. The flasher firing with the flippers is the most >>>>>>>>>>> annoying one, but honestly not a big deal itself. I was >>>>>>>>>>> seeking a possible “yeah, swap out these transistors... they >>>>>>>>>>> are aging” or similar common fix if it existed.

        I didn’t anticipate code changes doing it. That’s >>>>>>>>>>> interesting. I have an old EEPROM burner, so if I can find >>>>>>>>>>> relevant fixes, I probably have the things I need on hand to >>>>>>>>>>> try that. Would be a chance to add sockets if they aren’t
    already there (I don’t recall), too.

    Thanks - I’ll do some more research!
       - Aaron


    Have you tried the non-ghosting LEDs?  They are available from >>>>>>>>>> many
    pinball LED vendors.  For example:
    https://cointaker.com/products/44-47-premium-frosted

    Or, the more expensive solution is the LED OCD board.

    - Kerry

    So, as it turns out, I bought these from Marco Specialties
    which sources them from Cointaker. :) So... yep, these are
    non-ghosting, I suspect.

    This doesn't strike me as the "ghosting" I would imagine since >>>>>>>>> the issue is not universal. It's quite literally just a few
    lights in the whole system. Two flashers that flash whenever I >>>>>>>>> use the flippers, and a couple in the backbox that come on dim >>>>>>>>> alongside others. Otherwise, I don't see anything with a low
    glow, etc... most are on or off just fine save the few
    exceptions noted.

    This is why I continue to wonder if there is "leakage" from >>>>>>>>> some component breaking down a bit - especially in the case of >>>>>>>>> the two flashers that happen to blink when I hit the flippers
    (otherwise are off or full on when called upon properly).
    Granted, all of this is my imagination based on the terminology >>>>>>>>> or my own descriptions.

    Best,
      - Aaron


    The non-ghosting LEDs are quite a bit more expensive than
    regular ones, so you should be able to find out what you have by >>>>>>>> the price.

    I should have pointed out that the LED OCD board has advantages >>>>>>>> beyond stopping the ghosting.  It will make dimming effects work
    correctly. For example the shield strength indicators in ST:TNG.>>>>>>>>
    - Kerry

    Williams system 11B should not need anti-ghosting LEDs. I have
    converted several without an issue.  But I have used Pinball Life >>>>>>> standard LEDs and not Cointaker.  I am surprised that Cointaker / >>>>>>> Marco stuck you with the more expensive non-ghosting LEDs.

    Recently, I had no issues with an F14 with regular LEDs.

    However, there are lists supposedly based on real world
    experience where High Speed (11), Swords of Fury (11B) do not
    ghost, but Pinbot (11A) and Whirlwind (11B) do. Go figure.

    https://www.pinballbulbs.com/ghosting-list

    I don't know if to trust this information.  Without testing using >>>>>>> the same brand LED, it maybe unreliable.

    It is possible that there is some other action, like a motor or a >>>>>>> switch that arcs that could be inducing the flickering.  We see >>>>>>> that in many EM pins every time a solenoid fires.

    The flasher issue where they flicker with the flippers sounds
    like the induction of noise that might be causing the
    flickering?  I think Williams took out the 'warming resistor' by >>>>>>> 11B, so I assume that is not contributing?  Does the EOS switch >>>>>>> have the cap on it?

    John, I thought, from visual inspection, that the non-ghosting
    was accomplished by inserting a resistor in series with the LED. >>>>>>> But I could be completely wrong in this.  It maybe time to
    dissect an anti-ghosting LED.


    A resistor will only dim the LED, and if you look inside any LED
    for our games you will find a dropping resistor already there,
    otherwise the LEDs would burn out!

    John :-#)#


    Sorry John.  I was rather lazy in my response.  Of course you are >>>>> correct for a LED.

    Regular LEDs have a Vf of anywhere from ~2V to ~4.5 and would
    require a resistor in series.

    SMD LEDs (which I have no design experience) like the high power
    3535 Vf can be over 6V.  I have no idea if they need a resistor or >>>>> not in a nominal 6V pinball circuit.

    The 5050 SMD LED seems to be the most popular these days and it has >>>>> a max Vf of 3.4 V and 3 diodes per chip.  Dual SMDs are common.
    Would dual 5050's be in series without the resistor?

    I took a photo of a 'naked' flexible SMD LED (see link).  The SMD
    LED has three contacts on each side, which might coincide with the >>>>> 3 diodes?

    There are also three components on the back, with three leads each. >>>>> There is an additional larger component in the center that is
    marked "100" and "6V". This larger component might be 'piggybacked' >>>>> on the back of a sort of 'wafer'.

    That is a 100mfd/6V capacitor. That is the only way I can see
    reducing the flickering - inexpensively.


    The anti-ghosting 555 SMD LEDs have two resistors, one on each leg, >>>>> in addition to what looks like these components.

    Without dissecting a regular (not non-ghosting) SMD LED, I do not
    see a resistor, but there could be one or two.

    If you, or anyone, can help explain how these LEDs are
    non-ghosting, I would appreciate the explanation.

    https://flic.kr/s/aHsmMYErKr


    Cap across the LED, dropping resistor (if present) between LED and
    power.

    John :-#)#

    Thanks John.  I am terrible at identifying SMD parts.

    Not sure what the other three components are.


    Look like transistors...

    John :-#)#


    I was guessing that too.  I looked up some LED SMD circuits and for LED strips with lots of LEDs in series, they use FETs to limit the current > in case any LEDs fail shorted.

    But that does not seem to be applicable here.

    No wonder these non-ghosting LEDs cost almost twice as much.

    And, depending on the quality of the electrolytic caps, they may not
    last that long. It all depends capacitor temperature rating vs the
    temperature at the capacitor. If the cap is rated at 85C and it also
    runs around 85C then it will likely last 1,000 hours, if it runs around
    50C then you can likely bring that to 4,000 hours. You need a thermal
    imager to see how warm it gets.
    If the caps are 105C then they bring the curve up accordingly. Again, it all depends on the temperature at the capacitor...
    John :-#)#
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