From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:

I have a Jokers Open EM pinball.
Some of the drop targets fail to retract fully when hit.
I can see each drop target has 2 springs meant to pull the targets all
the way down. All the springs are attached and look to be in good
condition.

I believe the problem is that the targets rub against a metal frame
and there is a bit of dust and corrosion where they rub.

So, I want to clean the targets and possibly lubricate the metal/plastic interface. Is a wax rather than a lubricant the right thing to use?

I already have play field cleaner/wax.

Hi, I'm back 4 months later.

As I reported later, I found a loose spring inside the bank of drop targets.
I had problems with 2 adjacent targets not pulling all the way down.
One of them had the detached spring. So, I made a tool out of a dental
pick and got in there and reattached the spring. Confusingly, that did
not fix the problem. I kept trying cleaning, looking for something
mechanical, nothing worked.

So, I gave up and sprayed some WD40 in there.
Finally Jacks Open is working.
I don't know if the WD40 residue is going to cause problems, but
the machine has been working for a week or so now.

--
Dan Espen
--- Synchronet 3.17c-Win32 NewsLink 1.112

From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

On 2020/04/10 7:09 a.m., Dan Espen wrote:

Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:

I have a Jokers Open EM pinball.
Some of the drop targets fail to retract fully when hit.
I can see each drop target has 2 springs meant to pull the targets all
the way down. All the springs are attached and look to be in good
condition.

I believe the problem is that the targets rub against a metal frame
and there is a bit of dust and corrosion where they rub.

So, I want to clean the targets and possibly lubricate the metal/plastic
interface. Is a wax rather than a lubricant the right thing to use?

I already have play field cleaner/wax.

Hi, I'm back 4 months later.

As I reported later, I found a loose spring inside the bank of drop targets. I had problems with 2 adjacent targets not pulling all the way down.
One of them had the detached spring. So, I made a tool out of a dental
pick and got in there and reattached the spring. Confusingly, that did
not fix the problem. I kept trying cleaning, looking for something mechanical, nothing worked.

So, I gave up and sprayed some WD40 in there.
Finally Jacks Open is working.
I don't know if the WD40 residue is going to cause problems, but
the machine has been working for a week or so now.

WD-40 is a temporary fix, you will have to take the assemblies apart at
some point to clean out the WD-40 and whatever lube it softened, once it
turns to glue...

John :-#(#

--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd.
MOVED to #7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3
(604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
--- Synchronet 3.17c-Win32 NewsLink 1.112

From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> writes:

On 2020/04/10 7:09 a.m., Dan Espen wrote:

Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:

I have a Jokers Open EM pinball.
Some of the drop targets fail to retract fully when hit.
I can see each drop target has 2 springs meant to pull the targets all
the way down. All the springs are attached and look to be in good
condition.

I believe the problem is that the targets rub against a metal frame
and there is a bit of dust and corrosion where they rub.

So, I want to clean the targets and possibly lubricate the metal/plastic >>> interface. Is a wax rather than a lubricant the right thing to use?

I already have play field cleaner/wax.

Hi, I'm back 4 months later.

As I reported later, I found a loose spring inside the bank of drop targets. >> I had problems with 2 adjacent targets not pulling all the way down.
One of them had the detached spring. So, I made a tool out of a dental
pick and got in there and reattached the spring. Confusingly, that did
not fix the problem. I kept trying cleaning, looking for something
mechanical, nothing worked.

So, I gave up and sprayed some WD40 in there.
Finally Jacks Open is working.
I don't know if the WD40 residue is going to cause problems, but
the machine has been working for a week or so now.

WD-40 is a temporary fix, you will have to take the assemblies apart
at some point to clean out the WD-40 and whatever lube it softened,
once it turns to glue...

John :-#(#

Well, I'm 74 but I suspect I have another 20 years in me so we'll see.
I really didn't want to do it because it just seemed wrong but I
couldn't see any other thing to do.

I dread trying to take that bank apart. It's large, complex, and full
of springs with loads of attached wires.

--
Dan Espen
--- Synchronet 3.17c-Win32 NewsLink 1.112

From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

On 2020/04/10 10:43 a.m., Dan Espen wrote:

John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> writes:

On 2020/04/10 7:09 a.m., Dan Espen wrote:

Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:

I have a Jokers Open EM pinball.
Some of the drop targets fail to retract fully when hit.
I can see each drop target has 2 springs meant to pull the targets all >>>> the way down. All the springs are attached and look to be in good
condition.

I believe the problem is that the targets rub against a metal frame
and there is a bit of dust and corrosion where they rub.

So, I want to clean the targets and possibly lubricate the metal/plastic >>>> interface. Is a wax rather than a lubricant the right thing to use?

I already have play field cleaner/wax.

Hi, I'm back 4 months later.

As I reported later, I found a loose spring inside the bank of drop targets.
I had problems with 2 adjacent targets not pulling all the way down.
One of them had the detached spring. So, I made a tool out of a dental
pick and got in there and reattached the spring. Confusingly, that did
not fix the problem. I kept trying cleaning, looking for something
mechanical, nothing worked.

So, I gave up and sprayed some WD40 in there.
Finally Jacks Open is working.
I don't know if the WD40 residue is going to cause problems, but
the machine has been working for a week or so now.

WD-40 is a temporary fix, you will have to take the assemblies apart
at some point to clean out the WD-40 and whatever lube it softened,
once it turns to glue...

John :-#(#

Well, I'm 74 but I suspect I have another 20 years in me so we'll see.
I really didn't want to do it because it just seemed wrong but I
couldn't see any other thing to do.

I dread trying to take that bank apart. It's large, complex, and full
of springs with loads of attached wires.

Hi Dan,

Well, I'm a sprightly 68 so perhaps I see a rebuild differently...(ducking)

Play the game!

John ;-#)#

--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd.
MOVED to #7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3
(604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
--- Synchronet 3.17c-Win32 NewsLink 1.112

From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

I worked on a friend's Jacks Open a couple years ago, the complaint was that the score motor kept running. It took me forever to track it down to one (maybe more) of the drop targets that was not being completely raised to the full "up" position...the problem, as you might guess, was dried white grease on the drop targets. They sure *looked* like they were fully raised, though. I unsolderered the eight or so wires and took the drop target bank outside and doused it with CRC spray disc brake cleaner, then washed the assembly in "sudsy ammonia" and hot water (I tied a plastic bag around the coil), then let it dry in the sun. It sure had a snappier action after that, and performed just as it should when reinstalled. No lube on drop targets!
--- Synchronet 3.17c-Win32 NewsLink 1.112

From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

On 2020/04/10 7:40 p.m., bobelingson@gmail.com wrote:

I worked on a friend's Jacks Open a couple years ago, the complaint was that the score motor kept running. It took me forever to track it down to one (maybe more) of the drop targets that was not being completely raised to the full "up" position...the problem, as you might guess, was dried white grease on the drop targets. They sure *looked* like they were fully raised, though. I unsolderered the eight or so wires and took the drop target bank outside and doused it with CRC spray disc brake cleaner, then washed the assembly in "sudsy ammonia" and hot water (I tied a plastic bag around the coil), then let it dry in the sun. It sure had a snappier action after that, and performed just as it should when reinstalled. No lube on drop targets!

You may be missing the point about the use or non-use of various lubes
in pinball games (and other machines).

Where you are dealing with nylon or other self-lubricating plastics you
don't want to apply any additional lube as the nylon or other plastic
may absorb it and swell, or even crack! The commonly recommended lube is usually dry graphite powder when dealing with various plastic/metal
interfaces where wear may be a long term problem.

On the other hand, where you have metal on metal, there you have to
decide what type of lube to use, and that is dependent on the job at
hand. Sliding metal on metal normally requires a tiny bit of grease
(moly or white lithium), whereas turning metal on metal needs a bit of
20W non-detergent (not internal combustion motor!) oil. This is for
turning shafts, etc. You normally don't want so much lub/oil where it
can get to the contacts, except on stepper assemblies where the rivets
would wear out otherwise. A light synthetic grease there is best
nowadays, or if you can find some "Coin Machine Lube"...

I even put a tiny bit of grease on Gottlieb flipper EOS switches where
there is a metal blade that is pushed by the metal of the pawl. If you
check a game that has been played a lot you will see there is a hole
worn in the thin metal. That can lead to sticky flipper return action.

John :-#)#

--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd.
MOVED to #7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3
(604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
--- Synchronet 3.17c-Win32 NewsLink 1.112

From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> writes:

On 2020/04/10 7:40 p.m., bobelingson@gmail.com wrote:

I worked on a friend's Jacks Open a couple years ago, the complaint
was that the score motor kept running. It took me forever to track
it down to one (maybe more) of the drop targets that was not being
completely raised to the full "up" position...the problem, as you
might guess, was dried white grease on the drop targets. They sure
*looked* like they were fully raised, though. I unsolderered the
eight or so wires and took the drop target bank outside and doused
it with CRC spray disc brake cleaner, then washed the assembly in
"sudsy ammonia" and hot water (I tied a plastic bag around the
coil), then let it dry in the sun. It sure had a snappier action
after that, and performed just as it should when reinstalled. No
lube on drop targets!

Kudos on getting that thing out and cleaning it.
I notice you didn't disassemble it. That thing looks daunting.

In my case, I didn't think it was a cleaning issue, I was able to get
q-tips in between the targets and the metal guides and the whole thing
looked pretty clean. I'm guessing there is roughness on the metal parts causing the plastic to not slide. I needed to get emery cloth between
the targets and the metal which I could not do. So, next best was
lubrication.

You may be missing the point about the use or non-use of various lubes
in pinball games (and other machines).

Where you are dealing with nylon or other self-lubricating plastics
you don't want to apply any additional lube as the nylon or other
plastic may absorb it and swell, or even crack! The commonly
recommended lube is usually dry graphite powder when dealing with
various plastic/metal interfaces where wear may be a long term
problem.

So, I take that as a recommendation for graphite on drop targets.
(Assuming cleaning doesn't work.)

I got the WD40 from a friend that told me it was silicon based.
I see now that some types of WD40 are silicon based, but not the stuff
he gave me.

The WD40 is pretty thin, I don't expect any build up.
I'm not sure I like graphite, it doesn't spray and I was
afraid of black powder spreading around.

So, if I have to re-do this, I'm leaning toward:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/WD-40-SPECIALIST-10-oz-Dry-Lube-300059/204960991?MERCH=REC-_-Pip_Alternatives_Non_HDhome-_-205864344-_-204960991-_-N

Yeah, I know, no lubricant.

--
Dan Espen
--- Synchronet 3.17c-Win32 NewsLink 1.112

From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

On 4/11/20 9:07 AM, Dan Espen wrote:

John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> writes:

On 2020/04/10 7:40 p.m., bobelingson@gmail.com wrote:

I worked on a friend's Jacks Open a couple years ago, the complaint
was that the score motor kept running. It took me forever to track
it down to one (maybe more) of the drop targets that was not being
completely raised to the full "up" position...the problem, as you
might guess, was dried white grease on the drop targets. They sure
*looked* like they were fully raised, though. I unsolderered the
eight or so wires and took the drop target bank outside and doused
it with CRC spray disc brake cleaner, then washed the assembly in
"sudsy ammonia" and hot water (I tied a plastic bag around the
coil), then let it dry in the sun. It sure had a snappier action
after that, and performed just as it should when reinstalled. No
lube on drop targets!

Kudos on getting that thing out and cleaning it.
I notice you didn't disassemble it. That thing looks daunting.

In my case, I didn't think it was a cleaning issue, I was able to get
q-tips in between the targets and the metal guides and the whole thing
looked pretty clean. I'm guessing there is roughness on the metal parts causing the plastic to not slide. I needed to get emery cloth between
the targets and the metal which I could not do. So, next best was lubrication.

You may be missing the point about the use or non-use of various lubes
in pinball games (and other machines).

Where you are dealing with nylon or other self-lubricating plastics
you don't want to apply any additional lube as the nylon or other
plastic may absorb it and swell, or even crack! The commonly
recommended lube is usually dry graphite powder when dealing with
various plastic/metal interfaces where wear may be a long term
problem.

So, I take that as a recommendation for graphite on drop targets.
(Assuming cleaning doesn't work.)

I got the WD40 from a friend that told me it was silicon based.
I see now that some types of WD40 are silicon based, but not the stuff
he gave me.

The WD40 is pretty thin, I don't expect any build up.
I'm not sure I like graphite, it doesn't spray and I was
afraid of black powder spreading around.

So, if I have to re-do this, I'm leaning toward:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/WD-40-SPECIALIST-10-oz-Dry-Lube-300059/204960991?MERCH=REC-_-Pip_Alternatives_Non_HDhome-_-205864344-_-204960991-_-N

Yeah, I know, no lubricant.

It figures that WD40 is now using their brand name on a silicon
lubricant. That just confuses everyone.

I never use any standard WD40 in our pins. Besides being flammable, as
John points out, it 'fix' is temporary.

But silicon lubricants are another matter. We use silicon spray as well
as silicon bicycle lube (not chain cleaner which has a wax in it) on
parts where sliding is important. It seems to work especially well when
one has metal and plastic. It does not seem to gum up and lasts for
quite a long time.

But for that to work well, one has to completely clean the assembly.
Your best bet would be to remove those drop targets and clean them up,
then also hit the metal parts. Then apply the silicon lubricant.

But if you want to avoid doing this - it is not difficult, but take
photos so you know how to put it back together - then the q-tips and
isopropyl alcohol is a good bet. Don't use rubbing alcohol as some
brands include lanolin. It is also a good hand sanitizer if it is 70%
or higher. :-)

--
http://orcalcoast.com/
--- Synchronet 3.17c-Win32 NewsLink 1.112

From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

LexingtonVAPin <lhammer610@yahoo.com> writes:

But if you want to avoid doing this - it is not difficult, but take
photos so you know how to put it back together - then the q-tips and isopropyl alcohol is a good bet. Don't use rubbing alcohol as some
brands include lanolin. It is also a good hand sanitizer if it is 70%
or higher. :-)

Actually I was able to clean both sides of the targets without taking
anything apart. I used cue tips, windex.

I think I should just leave it and report back to this group when it
stops working. How else can we find out how bad WD40 really is?

--
Dan Espen
--- Synchronet 3.17c-Win32 NewsLink 1.112

From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

Dan Espen wrote:

I think I should just leave it and report back to this group when it
stops working. How else can we find out how bad WD40 really is?

Years of buying project machines from people that sprayed it all over
the place and cleaning it off.
--- Synchronet 3.17c-Win32 NewsLink 1.112

From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

On 2020/04/14 7:47 a.m., seymour.shabow wrote:

Dan Espen wrote:

I think I should just leave it and report back to this group when it
stops working.  How else can we find out how bad WD40 really is?

Years of buying project machines from people that sprayed it all over
the place and cleaning it off.

Indeed, over 40 years of fixing pinballs and jukeboxes have given me
good cause to avoid WD-40...but what do I know about fixing games and preventative maintenance?
John ;-#)#
--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd.
MOVED to #7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3
(604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
--- Synchronet 3.17c-Win32 NewsLink 1.112

From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> writes:

On 2020/04/14 7:47 a.m., seymour.shabow wrote:

Dan Espen wrote:

I think I should just leave it and report back to this group when it
stops working.  How else can we find out how bad WD40 really is?

Years of buying project machines from people that sprayed it all
over the place and cleaning it off.

Glad I'm not that guy, one very quick spray on the 2 targets that
wouldn't work.

Indeed, over 40 years of fixing pinballs and jukeboxes have given me
good cause to avoid WD-40...but what do I know about fixing games and preventative maintenance?

Hey, the LAST thing I want to do is imply I don't highly value your
experience and skill.

Now, what should I do?

-time passes-

Just finished cleaning all the targets with dry q-tips.
Targets still work.

They leave just enough space and holes that you can get at most of the
target surface.

--
Dan Espen
--- Synchronet 3.17c-Win32 NewsLink 1.112

From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

On 2020/04/14 12:10 p.m., Dan Espen wrote:

John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> writes:

On 2020/04/14 7:47 a.m., seymour.shabow wrote:

Dan Espen wrote:

I think I should just leave it and report back to this group when it>>>> stops working.  How else can we find out how bad WD40 really is?

Years of buying project machines from people that sprayed it all
over the place and cleaning it off.

Glad I'm not that guy, one very quick spray on the 2 targets that
wouldn't work.

Indeed, over 40 years of fixing pinballs and jukeboxes have given me
good cause to avoid WD-40...but what do I know about fixing games and
preventative maintenance?

Hey, the LAST thing I want to do is imply I don't highly value your experience and skill.

My comment was not aimed at you, I was joing with Seymour, sorry!

Now, what should I do?

-time passes-

Just finished cleaning all the targets with dry q-tips.
Targets still work.

They leave just enough space and holes that you can get at most of the
target surface.

Good work! You are hired at my shop - I need another apprentice! Wanna
live in Canada and be paid minimum wage?
Take care!
John :-#)#
--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd.
MOVED to #7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3
(604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
--- Synchronet 3.17c-Win32 NewsLink 1.112