Nightfox wrote to claw <=-
I like the nostalgic stories too. And I think it's funny that back
when broadband internet was becoming more common, it seemed so cool to have a super high-speed internet connection that was always connected,
but now sometimes I want to use a modem with a phone line again to dial into a BBS.
I believe that's what you've honed in on, but the comment
that precipitated that was you opining that making Linux
more user-friendly is dumbing it down and opening the door
to a loss of some sort of freedom as different use cases
become favored, which is just not an accurate reading of
things.
A large reason for Free operating systems being free, is that no one project, no one power, no one vision has enough power to be able to push out competitors. I did express a concern that Linux say, taking a majority share of the desktop could lead to degradation of freedom.
Such a scenario results in a higher probability of one company defining what Linux is, and having potential clout to shape the desktop of the majority of users, and make specific requirement which push out, or exclude competition. For example, using an app packaging system which
is closed source (for security reasons), or if PC's will only boot
signed kernels, and they can push for standards which only they, or only large aligned distros can meet.
I'm sorry I brought up ESR's article, because it wasn't the point I
wanted to made. /etc/passwd is a little different, but the details
don't matter. ESR made a statement that delimited formats are better
than CSV, in general I think he is right, but there are nuances.
What does that have to do with building software? Your
statement was about software development, which is _radically_ different now than it was in 1999. Based on this comment
alone, it seems likely your experience is limited to using
machines, and you have very limited development experience.
Sounds like you find yourself in a soul-sucking deadening environment. I'm genuinely sorry for that; however, you
continue to draw unwarranted conclusions about things generally
based on your personal experience, which really does not
follow. That's called anecdotal evidence, and is a known
logical fallacy.
There is a difference between building software, and building solutions.
When software is created by developers to solve a particular problem, it tends to be a monolithic 'suite', often now web based, which attempts to capture all workflows, but is usually inflexible (or modifiable at a cost).
I do export to CSV, before using in my scripts, and I am aware of the API's. I don't claim it is not possible to create such workflows in Windows, only that Windows wasn't designed around this type of computing model.
To some degree, the system has shaped the applications, moreso by convention and culture, than by technical necessity.
Whereas Unix systems officially support a different GUI.
My experience isn't the only thing I'm drawing on, but from
conversations with others.
tenser wrote to Nightfox <=-
It's not your father's Microsoft since Balmer retired.
There's an old school mentality that's now become dated. Ballmer had the benefit of momentum at Microsoft, but didn't provide much intertia, IMO. He was focused on "beating" the competition with a full stack of offerings - OS, browser, instant messaging, office apps and more.
Revenue was guaranteed through programmed obsolescence and support lifetimes.
The problem with exclusionary strategies is that you limit your market base.
Better still to separate your apps from your OS, especially as other
OSes gain market share. Move from a big, possibly unneeded upgrade
every couple of years to monthly billing...
Companies are still going to buy your OS, and you still have the Intel home market locked in - so rely on volume licensing and OEM deals.
Its at the bottom of every message :) "The Reader" its rather antique DOS software. When it first came out if seemed really spiffy to have a lightbar driven reader... was useless at 2400 though :P
Anyway its reply foibles are no change in addressee or subject... If you write instead sans quoting you do whatever you like.
About this time I discovered Fido via FTP, and could download Fido packets 4x/day instead of once at night.
I remember telling people 20 years ago that as the cost of
hardware goes asymptotically towards zero, software costs
would start to dominate, thus driving the rise of FOSS.
Google has O(10^7) discrete machines in its data centers,
distributed globally. The cost to license the OS for all
of them? $0.
I'll have to settle for running Telix in DOSBOX, setting the speed to 38400 and hearing that connect alert sound that reminds me of the 90s.
The first terminal program I used was Procomm Plus (I got a copy from someone else who used it). I had also used Telix a bit, but I
eventually settled on Telemate as my favorite terminal program. I think one reason I liked Telemate is that it had a couple of things it could
do while you're on a BBS waiting for file transfers & such - It had a CD player control so you could play a music CD in your CD-ROM drive with it while you're on a BBS, and I think it also had a text editor feature, where it would show a window where you could load and edit text files while you're on a BBS.
Foible? ....*Googles "foible"*.... Ah, I hadn't heard that word
And Apple, seemingly wanting to be a hardware-focused company, decided years ago to start making their Mac OS X updates free for their Macintosh machines. Years ago, I remember Mac OS X costing about $110 for a copy, and was much less to upgrade from the past couple versions. But those prices for Mac OS X are long gone.
You can export from an SQL database, and take what you need. It isn'
Yeah but you can export from pretty much anything, and that means the
data isn't inherently transferable, you still have to find the lowest common denominator all your dud software can handle.
Spec
You'll want it for all of 5 minutes ,then go back to your Internet connection. The only thing I miss about dial up, is that you could bypass the Internet. At the time there was no real good reason to do so, but now with the Internet being what it is in terms of privacy th intimate "direct dial to a friends house" seems more appealing. I us to dial into a friends place with modem, and we'd just chat "online" Telix, and maybe send some small files back and forth, like cool new Amiga Tracker Modules we've found.
Nice The first Terminal program I has was Telix! Then Terminate came along. With the wider view and better scroll back options. Couldn't
beat it. Man the mods. We all collected them. Made mix tapes traded them. It was just crazy how much fun they were. Riding around on our bikes listening to them and eventually our cars. I remember takeing a
few steps to get them on to CD. :D
DrClaw
Love all the nostalgic stories. kinda want to dial in. i know flex is adding lines for this soon my bbs will have dial up
I don't want to go through the hassle of getting a modem working with my VOIP lines. I'll have to settle for running Telix in DOSBOX, setting the speed to 38400 and hearing that connect alert sound that reminds me of
the 90s.
... Move towards the unimportant
with the Internet being what it is in terms of privacy the intimate "direct dial to a friends house" seems more appealing. I used to dial a friends place with modem, and we'd just chat "online" in Telix, and maybe send some small files back and forth, like cool new Amiga Track Modules we've found.
Yeah, I did that a few times back in the day. That was fun.
Nightfox
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Win32
Doesn't matter what distro you use. Anyone you can get working easil will be fine.
If you want something you can run easily, try a bootable "mini" distr like Puppy Linux or even System Rescue CD. These will boot and run straight from the install media, which means for the VM, just create couple of blank disk images, attach the ISO, and boot from the ISO an you're good to go.
Thanks. I actually have system rescue on PXE boot so might give that a shot this weekend.
DrClaw
Sysop Noverdu BBS (Noverdu.com)
Standard Ports for SSH/Telnet Web/HTTP://Noverdu.com:808
fsxNet/MRC Chat/Registered Doors!/50Nodes/No Time Use! Stay On!
--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
A large reason for Free operating systems being free, is that no one project, no one power, no one vision has enough power to be able to p out competitors. I did express a concern that Linux say, taking a majority share of the desktop could lead to degradation of freedom. Such a scenario results in a higher probability of one company defini what Linux is, and having potential clout to shape the desktop of the majority of users, and make specific requirement which push out, or exclude competition. For example, using an app packaging system whic is closed source (for security reasons), or if PC's will only boot signed kernels, and they can push for standards which only they, or o large aligned distros can meet.
So things that are already happening in the firmware space.
Mods, S3M's, 669's, Impulse Tracker, they were the bomb! When I got the 386, it had an Adlib card. The Adlib card had an OPL2 chip, but no DSP. So FM Synthesis only, yet mod players could play mods through them,
albeit quietly. Some even supported the PC speaker, which sounded, well, not as good as Adlib.
eventually settled on Telemate as my favorite terminal program. I
think one reason I liked Telemate is that it had a couple of things
it could do while you're on a BBS waiting for file transfers & such
- It had a CD player control so you could play a music CD in your
wow that is cool. could it play mods?
I think this stems from Jobs in particular deciding this is what you want, you just don't know it. I'm not sure going forward how long this will really be viable for them. They don't seem to have any..... innovators at the moment.. that is innovators in the paradigm change kind of area... probably plenty of smart people refining "current" concepts.
We used to use a version of ZModem called szmodem, I think "Super Z Modem". You could while a transfer was going, chat or play tetris or another two player game. Kind of cool to be able to do that while a transfer was going, as typically in those days, once you started a download if you were using DOS, thats it, your computer can't do anything else until you're done.
szmodem sounds familiar.. And I had started to see software that let you do other things while transferring a file, just before the internet started to get popular.
szmodem sounds familiar.. And I had started to see software that
let you do other things while transferring a file, just before the
internet started to get popular.
There was also bi-modem, and another one...sabre hmmm no... nup can't think what it was... they all appeared roughly the same kind of time... about 93/94 at least here anyways.
Which is the point you were making earlier, wasn't it ;)
in my BBS in case a user wanted to use one of them. These days, it seems there's just support for X/Y/Zmodem in modern BBS software, and I'd heard technically we don't even need those when sending data over an internet connection.
Which is the point you were making earlier, wasn't it ;)
Bazingo.
Mods, S3M's, 669's, Impulse Tracker, they were the bomb! When I got 386, it had an Adlib card. The Adlib card had an OPL2 chip, but no D So FM Synthesis only, yet mod players could play mods through them, albeit quietly. Some even supported the PC speaker, which sounded, we not as good as Adlib.
Hmm If I recall right, ModTracker for the PC came with schematics for a parallel port D2A converter... either a resistor ladder type or a DAC0800 chip. It actually worked better than the adlib.
ST
We used to use a version of ZModem called szmodem, I think "Super Z Modem". You could while a transfer was going, chat or play tetris or another two player game. Kind of cool to be able to do that while a transfer was going, as typically in those days, once you started a download if you were using DOS, thats it, your computer can't do anyt else until you're done.
szmodem sounds familiar.. And I had started to see software that let
you do other things while transferring a file, just before the internet started to get popular.
There were a couple of graphical BBS standards I started to see too -
RIP and RoboBoard. I remember calling one or two RoboBoard BBSes in my area, and I remember RoboBoard having a custom, fully graphical BBS
client program, and I seem to remember it looking a bit like AOL or Windows, where you could have multiple things going on with the BBS at
the same time. I think it would allow you to be downloading a file
while also playing a game and chatting, etc..
Nightfox
szmodem sounds familiar.. And I had started to see software that let do other things while transferring a file, just before the internet started to get popular.
There was also bi-modem, and another one...sabre hmmm no... nup can't think what it was... they all appeared roughly the same kind of time... about 93/94 at least here anyways.
Spec
Which is the point you were making earlier, wasn't it ;)
Bazingo.
I think that's the core reason I don't have any Apple devices right now. They seem to want a lot of control over the hardware and software, and more and more lately, they don't have any offerings that I really want.
Which is the point you were making earlier, wasn't it ;)
Bazingo.
Which I don't disagree with, and is forward looking. Freedom requires both, the ability to understand, modify, configure and compose software
at the higher level, and the ability to actually build it and run it at
a lower level.
The former cannot exist without the latter, but the latter without the former is pointless.
A lot of transfer protocols won't behave over the interwebs due to latency.. TLP doesn't get any assist in the department being 2-3 layers before you reach the BBS. I can barely get any of it to run over LAN let alone from something from remote.
Being able to do two things at once though is something I'd still like to see on a BBS, in particular have a download going while composing messages.
That's what I've heard, but I've been able to upload & download files via Zmodem to remote BBSes and haven't had a problem.
Which I don't disagree with, and is forward looking. Freedom require both, the ability to understand, modify, configure and compose softwa at the higher level, and the ability to actually build it and run it a lower level.
The former cannot exist without the latter, but the latter without th former is pointless.
The latter is essential the former. What does it matter what
you do to configure your "free" desktop and shell environment
when you can no longer boot it because the platform vendors
have locked you out at the firmware level? Or when you can
no longer get an X server that works on your hardware because
the graphics adapter vendors have decided that they just won't
tell the X people how to program the hardware? That is the
point.
Fortunately, Linux is too important now to lock out entirely.
But vendors don't care about Xorg or Wayland, and the firmware
folks could well require signed kernels to boot, in which case
your "freedom" to configure your own kernel is gone. And if
that kernel only runs signed binaries? Forget it (and yes,
Linux supports that, and yes, it's used in data centers).
--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
Nightfox wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
With my original BBS, I joined FidoNet a bit late (in 1998). By then,
I probably could have been transferring FidoNet packets by FTP several times a day instead of once a night.
That was a good time, but the end was definitely in sight for theI was one of the last dialup bbs in my area code. Then I went dsl in 2002.
dial-up
BBS.
That's what I've heard, but I've been able to upload & download files via Zmodem to remote BBSes and haven't had a problem.
I was one of the last dialup bbs in my area code. Then I went dsl in
2002.
Interesting. Probably depends on implementation at both ends of Z-modem.. but Z is usually the first to fail.. shifting block size while
That's what I've heard, but I've been able to upload & download
files via Zmodem to remote BBSes and haven't had a problem.
Interesting. Probably depends on implementation at both ends of Z-modem.. but Z is usually the first to fail.. shifting block size while dealing with latency, while X/Y usually keep functioning due to more simplistic action.
Quoting Nightfox to Spectre <=-
software, and more and more lately, they don't have any offerings that
I really want. In recent years, they've even gone so far as soldering
the RAM onto the board and making it hard to upgrade/replace other components as well.. But I think I had heard they're reversing that trend, at least with a couple of their Macs. But they're also fairly expensvie too..
I was one of the last dialup bbs in my area code. Then I went dsl in 2002.
You guys lasted longer than us. By ~93/94 it was all over here... dialins virtually went to 0 in a matter of a couple of months. By 2000 we would have had a pretty good shaking out of ISPs as well most of the BBS level guys had merged into bigger dialup installations, and ADSL/Cable were putting the kibosh on those too.
ST
I was using dial up BBS's up until about 1999, though it was around 1995-1996 when they started to really decline.
I'm in Australia, so it seems they kept going here for a little longer.
I finally moved away from
using a modem in 2007.
Linux is easy to use, my wife is using it with very little training.
The only thing I had to show her, was where to go to install software,
and how to change the background image. My pre-school kids figured out how to start and stop programs.
I agreed that being able to use your hardware at a fundamental level was necessary, but the original point I was making was orthogonal to this.
It was that a sense of freedom at a higher level (at the application
level and higher) was based on the functionality the software gave you, the documentation that gave you, and the way in which the disparate
pieces that form your system can be put together the way you want.
To use an analogy, I was talking about your freedom to drive your car wherever you like, at any time you like, taking whatever route you feel
is good for you, whereas you're talking about the ability to start the
car at all. Yes, the former freedom is useless without the latter, but
it still warrants discussion.
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