• Resurgence of non-mainstream social media?

    From Sam Alexander@VERT/BAUDOT to All on Thursday, April 28, 2022 20:52:12
    I have accounts on Twitter and Facebook and a few others, but I rarely use them. Mostly just consume data from a few of the organizations I volunteer for who opt to use those platforms as their public voice. But now that Tesla dude owns Twitter I'm reading many of the non-mainstream social media platforms are getting a boost. Wonder if many folks who are aware of BBSes will move here to find some outlet. Probably only the nerdiest of the nerdiest would, but still even if a small fraction did would be neat to see.

    Also off topic, but when did Sync add the up and down votes on messages? Very nice, reminds me of Reddit ;-)

    ---
    Synchronet Camping on the Internet at Camp Baudot BBS - campbaudot.com
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Sam Alexander on Thursday, April 28, 2022 19:44:48
    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstream social media?
    By: Sam Alexander to All on Thu Apr 28 2022 08:52 pm

    I have accounts on Twitter and Facebook and a few others, but I rarely use them. Mostly just consume data from a few of the organizations I volunteer for who opt to use those platforms as their public voice. But now that Tesla dude owns Twitter I'm reading many of the non-mainstream social media platforms are getting a boost. Wonder if many folks who are aware of BBSes will move here to find some outlet. Probably only the nerdiest of the nerdiest would, but still even if a small fraction did would be neat to see.

    Also off topic, but when did Sync add the up and down votes on messages? Very nice, reminds me of Reddit ;-)


    make sure you remember to quote msgs
    ---
    Synchronet ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Digital Man@VERT to Sam Alexander on Thursday, April 28, 2022 18:57:02
    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstream social media?
    By: Sam Alexander to All on Thu Apr 28 2022 08:52 pm

    Also off topic, but when did Sync add the up and down votes on messages? Very nice, reminds me of Reddit ;-)

    It's been several years now. Glad you like it.
    --
    digital man (rob)

    Synchronet/BBS Terminology Definition #33:
    FSP = FidoNet Standards Proposal
    Norco, CA WX: 61.6F, 68.0% humidity, 5 mph S wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs
    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Sam Alexander on Thursday, April 28, 2022 18:48:22
    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstream social media?
    By: Sam Alexander to All on Thu Apr 28 2022 08:52 pm

    Tesla dude owns Twitter I'm reading many of the non-mainstream social media platforms are getting a boost. Wonder if many folks who are aware of BBSes will move here to find some outlet. Probably only the nerdiest of

    What are these non-mainstream social media platforms you speak of? I thought most people had moved to Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. I didn't think others such as MySpace, LiveJournal, Orkut, and others were used much anymore.

    Also off topic, but when did Sync add the up and down votes on messages? Very nice, reminds me of Reddit ;-)

    From what I remember, that was added in late 2016 for Synchronet 3.17. And in addition to upvoting and downvoting, Synchronet also supports polls that people can vote on.

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Sam Alexander on Friday, April 29, 2022 19:24:14
    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstream social media?
    By: Sam Alexander to All on Thu Apr 28 2022 08:52 pm

    I have accounts on Twitter and Facebook and a few others, but I rarely use them.
    Mostly just consume data from a few of the organizations I volunteer for who opt
    use those platforms as their public voice. But now that Tesla dude owns Twitter
    reading many of the non-mainstream social media platforms are getting a boost.
    Wonder if many folks who are aware of BBSes will move here to find some outlet.
    Probably only the nerdiest of the nerdiest would, but still even if a small fract
    did would be neat to see.

    Also off topic, but when did Sync add the up and down votes on messages? Very ni
    reminds me of Reddit ;-)


    The people worried about Musk buying Twitter are mostly ideological fanantics having
    a tizzy fit. I don't think he'll fix that much anyway.

    I think a lot of people aren't aware, or aren't interested, mostly the former. I
    think it is a good alternative to crappy ad-driven social media, with many benefits
    the Big Tech platforms cannot offer.

    Welcome to BBS'ing! I did use BBS's in the mid to late 90s, but dropped out at about 2000 completely after they dissappeared and I moved to using the "Internet"
    for everything. Several years ago I found they still existed, popped in and out
    just to see what they were like but stayed after a while because logging in to a BBS
    gets you more than just nostalgia.

    ---
    Synchronet MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Nightfox on Friday, April 29, 2022 08:07:00
    Nightfox wrote to Sam Alexander <=-

    What are these non-mainstream social media platforms you speak of? I thought most people had moved to Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. I didn't think others such as MySpace, LiveJournal, Orkut, and others
    were used much anymore.

    Remember when the "If you don't like how our platform is run, start your own" saying?

    Well, several started. MeWe is sort of like Facebook. Gab is sort of like Twitter. Rumble and BitChute are like YouTube. I'm sure there are more, but those are the ones I use.


    ... Money talks - mine says "Goodbye"
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    Synchronet Diamond Mine Online BBS - bbs.dmine.net:24 - Fredericksburg, VA USA
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dr. What on Friday, April 29, 2022 08:23:29
    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstr
    By: Dr. What to Nightfox on Fri Apr 29 2022 08:07 am

    Nightfox wrote to Sam Alexander <=-

    What are these non-mainstream social media platforms you speak of? I thought most people had moved to Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. I didn't think others such as MySpace, LiveJournal, Orkut, and others were used much anymore.

    Remember when the "If you don't like how our platform is run, start your own" saying?

    Well, several started. MeWe is sort of like Facebook. Gab is sort of like Twitter. Rumble and BitChute are like YouTube. I'm sure there are more, but those are the ones I use.


    that's happened with everything. that's why there's so many programming languages. only the strong survive.

    twitter and fb stuck around through all this because they were strong and there's more people on them.

    speaking of gab, i can't get them to send me my pw reset. my account is there but never works.
    ---
    Synchronet ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Kaelon@VERT to Dr. What on Friday, April 29, 2022 07:38:04
    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstr
    By: Dr. What to Nightfox on Fri Apr 29 2022 08:07 am

    Remember when the "If you don't like how our platform is run, start your own" saying?

    Well, several started. MeWe is sort of like Facebook. Gab is sort of like Twitter. Rumble and BitChute are like YouTube. I'm sure there are more, but those are the ones I use.

    Absolutely. Don't forget that there's a huge decentralized free, open-source software (FOSS) of social media out there (sometimes called the "Fediverse"). Federated Social Media has sprung up everywhere, allowing the use of the ActivityPub protocol to allow everyone to start up their own Twitter (Mastodon), YouTube (PeerTube), Instagram (Pixelfed), and the like, and they can all talk to one another and federate easily and selectively.

    I feel that, even though the Federation / Fediverse has been a nerdy experiment mostly among fringe and nerds, the dramatic increase in it (namely, Mastodon) thanks to Tusk's acquisition of Twitter is going to launch a new renaissance. Definitely provides food for thought along-side the Alt Soc Med.

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    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Kaelon on Friday, April 29, 2022 17:59:32
    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstr
    By: Kaelon to Dr. What on Fri Apr 29 2022 07:38 am

    I feel that, even though the Federation / Fediverse has been a nerdy experim mostly among fringe and nerds, the dramatic increase in it (namely, Mastodon thanks to Tusk's acquisition of Twitter is going to launch a new renaissance Definitely provides food for thought along-side the Alt Soc Med.

    When the Spanish TV released some news about Quitter, a group of nodes from the Fediverse, portraying it as an anticapitalist version of Twitter, there was an avalanche and their services got overloaded.

    A month later all the newcomers had left for good.

    People is not constant at all.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    Synchronet Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Dr. What on Saturday, April 30, 2022 19:49:14
    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstr
    By: Dr. What to Nightfox on Fri Apr 29 2022 08:07 am

    Nightfox wrote to Sam Alexander <=-

    What are these non-mainstream social media platforms you speak of? I though
    most people had moved to Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. I didn't think
    others such as MySpace, LiveJournal, Orkut, and others
    were used much anymore.

    Remember when the "If you don't like how our platform is run, start your own"
    saying?

    Well, several started. MeWe is sort of like Facebook. Gab is sort of like Twitt
    Rumble and BitChute are like YouTube. I'm sure there are more, but those are the
    ones I use.


    ... Money talks - mine says "Goodbye"

    "Our platform", recognition that the digital public square was never really for the
    public.

    The best thing Elon could do now, is get every backup tape and hard drive which contains Twitter code and data passed under a degausser and then sold as blanks on
    e-bay.

    ---
    Synchronet MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From Kaelon@VERT to Arelor on Saturday, April 30, 2022 10:57:02
    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstr
    By: Arelor to Kaelon on Fri Apr 29 2022 05:59 pm

    When the Spanish TV released some news about Quitter, a group of nodes from the Fediverse, portraying it as an anticapitalist version of Twitter, there was an avalanche and their services got overloaded.

    A month later all the newcomers had left for good.

    People is not constant at all.

    Tienes razon. But even so, the principle of the Fediverse is that you can join any instance - big or small - and still be able to interact with any and all "instances" that are "federated" with it. So one of the problems is that, on Mastodon, everyone was joining mastodon.social and mastodon.online. But there's no reason to do so, really.

    That said, I do think that the temporary surge in the Fediverse will be short-lived. Social Networks depend upon the social networking effect, and you need a critical mass of users and interactivity to deal with that.
    -=- Kaelon -=- kaelon@kaelon.com -=-

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to Arelor on Saturday, April 30, 2022 11:58:08
    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstr
    By: Arelor to Kaelon on Fri Apr 29 2022 05:59 pm

    When the Spanish TV released some news about Quitter, a group of nodes from the Fediverse, portraying it as an anticapitalist version of Twitter, there was an avalanche and their services got overloaded.

    A month later all the newcomers had left for good.

    People is not constant at all.

    Social media sites need to have instant traction, and about 75% retention in the beginning or they're going to fail. I was involved with a crypto-based social media site last year. a year's worth of work was put into it, but it wasn't quite marketed right. It was too complex for the "average" person, it got overloaded with crypto-bros and only had about 25% retention (people signed up for the free crypto and didn't come back for the most part).


    Fortunately the guy in charge saw what was happening after a few weeks and pulled the plug. He released the code behind the site as FOSS so maybe someone in the future can run with it once some of the underlying issues are worked out.


    About the only "social media" sites that really stand a chance as a startup are things like internet forums that are focused on a niche topic. Even Facebook has killed off a ton of those with "groups", but forums are still leaps and bounds better with the ability to easily search for information, especially if stuff is well organized.

    You have to walk a very fine line though. if your topic is too "niche" your site won't gain enough traction to generate content so others can find you.

    DaiTengu

    ... Not one hundred percent efficient, of course.but nothing ever is.

    ---
    Synchronet War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From Kaelon@VERT to DaiTengu on Saturday, April 30, 2022 16:35:42
    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstr
    By: DaiTengu to Arelor on Sat Apr 30 2022 11:58 am

    About the only "social media" sites that really stand a chance as a startup are things like internet
    forums that are focused on a niche topic. Even Facebook has killed off a ton of those with "groups",
    but
    forums are still leaps and bounds better with the ability to easily search for information, especially
    if
    stuff is well organized.

    So very true, DaiTengu. I was having an extensive conversation with other legacy forum admins over the past couple of weeks, and pointing out just how social media - in particularly, Facebook Groups, Reddit, and to a lesser extent, Discord - has radically displaced niche forums. But the loss of discoverability, thanks to Google penalizing user generated content on forums and the like, has rendered most forums - whether they are on Facebook or are independently operating - largely invisible.

    If I were starting a new social media or community website today, I would focus on a super simple and intuitive interface with an emphasis on discovery, sharing, and ease of use. But then again, that's why we have Twitter and the federated alternatives on ActivityPub.
    -=- Kaelon -=- kaelon@kaelon.com -=-

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Kaelon on Saturday, April 30, 2022 20:02:12
    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstr
    By: Kaelon to Arelor on Sat Apr 30 2022 10:57 am

    That said, I do think that the temporary surge in the Fediverse will be short-lived. Social Networks depend upon the social networking effect, and y need a critical mass of users and interactivity to deal with that.

    Yes and no.

    The systems we think of when we talk about social network do depend on having a critical mass of users to be relevant, or they will fall back into obscurity as far as the public eye is concerned. However, a system does not need to be popular to be useful.

    As I have said elsewhere, I don't care if the IRC server I host in my closet is popular or not if my three friends happen to be there.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    Synchronet Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Kaelon@VERT to Arelor on Saturday, April 30, 2022 18:37:27
    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstr
    By: Arelor to Kaelon on Sat Apr 30 2022 08:02 pm

    The systems we think of when we talk about social network do depend on having a critical mass of users to be relevant, or they will fall back into obscurity as far as the public eye is concerned. However, a system does not need to be popular to be useful.

    As I have said elsewhere, I don't care if the IRC server I host in my closet is popular or not if my three friends happen to be there.

    Well said. It always comes down to the use case for each person hosting the service.
    -=- Kaelon -=-

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Kaelon on Sunday, May 01, 2022 16:07:05
    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstr
    By: Kaelon to DaiTengu on Sat Apr 30 2022 04:35 pm

    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstr
    By: DaiTengu to Arelor on Sat Apr 30 2022 11:58 am

    About the only "social media" sites that really stand a chance as a startup ar
    things like internet forums that are focused on a niche topic. Even Facebook
    killed off a ton of those with "groups", but
    forums are still leaps and bounds better with the ability to easily search for
    information, especially if
    stuff is well organized.

    So very true, DaiTengu. I was having an extensive conversation with other legacy
    forum admins over the past couple of weeks, and pointing out just how social medi
    in particularly, Facebook Groups, Reddit, and to a lesser extent, Discord - has
    radically displaced niche forums. But the loss of discoverability, thanks to Goo
    penalizing user generated content on forums and the like, has rendered most forum
    whether they are on Facebook or are independently operating - largely invisible.

    If I were starting a new social media or community website today, I would focus o
    super simple and intuitive interface with an emphasis on discovery, sharing, and
    ease of use. But then again, that's why we have Twitter and the federated alternatives on ActivityPub.
    -=- Kaelon -=- kaelon@kaelon.com -=-

    It is like we are living in a new Dark Age. The old websites have dissappeared,and
    with Social Media, forum discussions are missing now too from web searched. It's
    fine for Google not to index general discussion (I'd prefer it doesn't), but when
    the group on Facebook is about how to fix hardware, and people are sharing solutions, its good to be able to find these.

    Facebook is terrible for that, which is why people keep posting the same questions
    over and over again.

    ---
    Synchronet MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From Kaelon@VERT to Boraxman on Sunday, May 01, 2022 14:11:00
    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstr
    By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Sun May 01 2022 04:07 pm

    It is like we are living in a new Dark Age. The old websites have dissappeared,and
    with Social Media, forum discussions are missing now too from web searched. It's fine for Google not to index general discussion (I'd prefer it doesn't), but when the group on Facebook is about how to fix hardware, and people are sharing solutions, its good to be able to find these.

    Facebook is terrible for that, which is why people keep posting the same questions over and over again.

    Completely agree with you. Web forums have always been pretty terrible for archival purposes, and even with public benefit organizations, like the Internet Archive and its Way Back Machine, findability and discovery are basically impossible and there are always limits.

    The Dark Age of Social Media has with it very steep prices, but it does seem like there is, at the very least, a genuine awakening to the dangers and the loss of human knowledge that this poses. You are so right that people keep asking the same questions over and over again, and whether it's Facebook or Reddit or, even worse, Discord groups, it's impossible for people to build a collective knowledge to advance awareness.
    -=- Kaelon -=-

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Kaelon on Monday, May 02, 2022 19:04:07
    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstr
    By: Kaelon to Boraxman on Sun May 01 2022 02:11 pm

    Completely agree with you. Web forums have always been pretty terrible for archival purposes, and even with public benefit organizations, like the Internet Archive and its Way Back Machine, findability and discovery are basically impossible and there are always limits.

    The Dark Age of Social Media has with it very steep prices, but it does seem like there is, at the very least, a genuine awakening to the dangers and the loss of human knowledge that this poses. You are so right that people keep asking the same questions over and over again, and whether it's Facebook or Reddit or, even worse, Discord groups, it's impossible for people to build a collective knowledge to advance awareness.
    -=- Kaelon -=-

    The best was simple web pages set up by people who knew their subject, and put their findings on the Internet for posterity. They too are harder to find, but you come accross them from time to time. Simple HTML pages, some inline images, thats it. I save webpages that are good references to an archive hard disk, incase I need it later and the site or page dissapears.

    In the it will be book that stand the test of time, or patiently built digital archives that are handed down.

    ---
    Synchronet MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From Kaelon@VERT to Boraxman on Monday, May 02, 2022 07:32:40
    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstr
    By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Mon May 02 2022 07:04 pm

    The best was simple web pages set up by people who knew their subject, and put their findings on the Internet for posterity. They too are harder to find, but you come accross them from time to time. Simple HTML pages, some inline images, thats it. I save webpages that are good references to an archive hard disk, incase I need it later and the site or page dissapears.

    I love this practice, and genuinely, wish I would adopt it more often myself. Of course, the loss of Geocities was tremendous because virtually all of those sites were filled with really interesting information from amateurs and professionals alike. True subject matter experts are passionate and know their topics really well, and when you see them provide insight, it's a joy to read and review.

    Re: your later statement about what will stand the test of time, as much as I like to think that a digital archive will be the enduring trove of our lifetimes, I am genuinely worried that the continuing obsolescence of media, operating systems, and formats will lead to a great Dark Age of knowledge, when computers of the future won't be able to read the files from today, let alone the 1980s or 1990s.

    People keep insisting that the best way to preserve knowledge is to print it out. I'm just glad that I never became a true digital native, despite having been raised in the 1980s and 1990s and growing up around systems. I always print pretty much everything; it's how my brain works!
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Kaelon on Tuesday, May 03, 2022 18:34:00
    Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-

    The best was simple web pages set up by people who knew their subject, and put their findings on the Internet for posterity. They too are harder to find, but you come accross them from time to time. Simple HTML pages, some inline images, thats it. I save webpages that are good references to an archive hard disk, incase I need it later and the site or page dissapears.

    I love this practice, and genuinely, wish I would adopt it more often myself. Of course, the loss of Geocities was tremendous because
    virtually all of those sites were filled with really interesting information from amateurs and professionals alike. True subject matter experts are passionate and know their topics really well, and when you
    see them provide insight, it's a joy to read and review.

    Re: your later statement about what will stand the test of time, as
    much as I like to think that a digital archive will be the enduring
    trove of our lifetimes, I am genuinely worried that the continuing obsolescence of media, operating systems, and formats will lead to a
    great Dark Age of knowledge, when computers of the future won't be able
    to read the files from today, let alone the 1980s or 1990s.

    People keep insisting that the best way to preserve knowledge is to
    print it out. I'm just glad that I never became a true digital native, despite having been raised in the 1980s and 1990s and growing up around systems. I always print pretty much everything; it's how my brain
    works! _____

    I did have a Geocities page. Like most people, the page was amateurish, and heavily personalised. Created from scratch the way that I envisioned the web page to look, not based on a template. There are still such sites, though they are lost amongst the noise.

    A suspect a lot of sites now are AI generated, designed to game Google's algorithms and bring in that sweet, sweet ad revenue.

    There was an effort in the 80's to digitise the Domesday book. A decade and a bit later, the original Domesday book can still be read, but the digital version not so, because of changes in technology and obsolescence. In the future, the difficulty will be finding it. We will have a similar problem to what scholars in the middle ages had, when books weren't categorised or logged, but where just put in piles, poorly titled, and one had to go through them all to find information, or even just to determine what they were about.

    I still have some data from the 90s and 2000's, but most people I would wager, don't, and if they do, it is lost, obscure, opaque. Look at all the BBS's that existed in the 80's and 90's, how many of those are now lost forever?


    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    Synchronet MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From Kaelon@VERT to Boraxman on Tuesday, May 03, 2022 07:57:34
    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstr
    By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Tue May 03 2022 06:34 pm

    I still have some data from the 90s and 2000's, but most people I would wager, don't, and if they do, it is lost, obscure, opaque. Look at all the BBS's that existed in the 80's and 90's, how many of those are now lost forever?

    Very well stated. And this is the tragedy, really, of our current digital ecosystem. In the late 1980s, my dad interviewed the entire family and built a comprehensive family tree stretching back into the 1400s -- which he then reconciled with Church records in Spain to go back even further! -- but he stored it on tape backup.

    Two problems:

    1. The tape backup, which for all you know may still be readable, depends upon hardware that is no longer produced.

    2. The family tree software, which was legacy DOS and never ported or migrated, is impossible to find now and it's a relic. He may have it in disks somewhere, but it's probably 5 1/4" disks rather than the somewhat-more-manageable 3 1/2", which also poses other media problems.

    Between the loss of media inter-operability and format / software conversion, that entire labor - and the wealth of family knowledge from relatives who have since passed on - is, as far as the rest of the family is concerned, totally lost.

    How do we even begin to solve problems as large as human history's recorded deficit, when we can't even deal with the BBS'es from the 1990s or family trees from the 1980s?
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Boraxman on Tuesday, May 03, 2022 08:30:00
    Boraxman wrote to Kaelon <=-

    I love this practice, and genuinely, wish I would adopt it more often myself. Of course, the loss of Geocities was tremendous because
    virtually all of those sites were filled with really interesting information from amateurs and professionals alike. True subject matter experts are passionate and know their topics really well, and when you
    see them provide insight, it's a joy to read and review.

    Wordpress.com is a good starting point, they have a great UI, free plans,
    and you can export your data to your self-hosted wordpress instance when you're ready.

    I've captured information for posterity, shared photos, and written a FAQ
    that are all hosted on a site I started in 2000.

    I still have some data from the 90s and 2000's, but most people I would wager, don't, and if they do, it is lost, obscure, opaque. Look at all the BBS's that existed in the 80's and 90's, how many of those are now lost forever?

    I so wish I spent more money on data storage back in the 90s and kept better backups. As it is, I have a backup from 1994 and 1999, and that's it.






    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    Synchronet MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org

    ... A journey of a thousand sandwiches begins with a single cut.
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    Synchronet .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Boraxman on Tuesday, May 03, 2022 12:45:50
    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstr
    By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Tue May 03 2022 06:34 pm

    I still have some data from the 90s and 2000's, but most people I would wager, don't, and if they do, it is lost, obscure, opaque. Look at all the BBS's that existed in the 80's and 90's, how many of those are now lost forever?

    When I took my original BBS down in 2000, I burned a backup of it onto a CD-R. Last I checked (just a few years ago), that CD-R is still readable.

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Kaelon@VERT to Nightfox on Tuesday, May 03, 2022 15:23:06
    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstr
    By: Nightfox to Boraxman on Tue May 03 2022 12:45 pm

    When I took my original BBS down in 2000, I burned a backup of it onto a CD-R. Last I checked (just a few years ago), that CD-R is still readable.

    Consider submitting it to the Internet Archive. They readily accept data donations, including software and underlying packages, for posterity.
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Kaelon on Tuesday, May 03, 2022 15:55:39
    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstr
    By: Kaelon to Nightfox on Tue May 03 2022 03:23 pm

    When I took my original BBS down in 2000, I burned a backup of it onto
    a CD-R. Last I checked (just a few years ago), that CD-R is still
    readable.

    Consider submitting it to the Internet Archive. They readily accept data donations, including software and underlying packages, for posterity.

    That's an idea. It has registered copies of some software though (including RemoteAccess, a FTN mail tosser, and a copule registered BBS doors which I still run on my current BBS).

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Digital Man@VERT to Kaelon on Tuesday, May 03, 2022 22:16:26
    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstr
    By: Kaelon to Boraxman on Tue May 03 2022 07:57 am

    2. The family tree software, which was legacy DOS and never ported or migrated, is impossible to find now and it's a relic. He may have it in

    Family Tree Maker by chance? I had the same/similar experience.
    --
    digital man (rob)

    Synchronet/BBS Terminology Definition #51:
    MODEM = Modulator/Demodulator
    Norco, CA WX: 58.8F, 78.0% humidity, 4 mph SSE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Kaelon@VERT to Digital Man on Tuesday, May 03, 2022 22:45:45
    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstr
    By: Digital Man to Kaelon on Tue May 03 2022 10:16 pm

    2. The family tree software, which was legacy DOS and never ported or migrated, is impossible to find now and it's a relic. He may have it in

    Family Tree Maker by chance? I had the same/similar experience.

    Actually, I think that's the one. I'll have to check with my dad; he's off on a geriatric escape with fellow old fogeys to Spain, and I know he's thinking about the family tree stuff.

    I wonder what, if anything, we can do to read the data and convert it. Definitely a project worth him undertaking and me helping him out; the insights there are priceless.
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Wednesday, May 04, 2022 02:57:09
    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstr
    By: Nightfox to Boraxman on Tue May 03 2022 12:45 pm

    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstr
    By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Tue May 03 2022 06:34 pm

    I still have some data from the 90s and 2000's, but most people I would wager, don't, and if they do, it is lost, obscure, opaque. Look at all the BBS's that existed in the 80's and 90's, how many of those are now lost forever?

    When I took my original BBS down in 2000, I burned a backup of it onto a CD-R. Last I checked (just a few years ago), that CD-R is still readable.


    it's readable until it isn't. it depends on that day in the factory, the media type, your drive, and the environment it's in.

    even in a perfect environment i had cds rot
    ---
    Synchronet ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to poindexter FORTRAN on Wednesday, May 04, 2022 00:26:00
    Re: Re: Resurgence of non-mai
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Boraxman on Tue May 03 2022 08:30 am

    Subject: Re: Resurgence of non-mainstr
    @MSGID: <627151ED.5121.dove.dove-int@realitycheckbbs.org>
    @REPLY: <6270F7AE.5359.dove-int@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @TZ: c1e0
    Boraxman wrote to Kaelon <=-

    I love this practice, and genuinely, wish I would adopt it more often myself. Of course, the loss of Geocities was tremendous because virtually all of those sites were filled with really interesting information from amateurs and professionals alike. True subject matter experts are passionate and know their topics really well, and when you see them provide insight, it's a joy to read and review.

    Wordpress.com is a good starting point, they have a great UI, free plans, and you can export your data to your self-hosted wordpress instance when you're ready.

    I've captured information for posterity, shared photos, and written a FAQ that are all hosted on a site I started in 2000.

    I still have some data from the 90s and 2000's, but most people I would wager, don't, and if they do, it is lost, obscure, opaque. Look at all the BBS's that existed in the 80's and 90's, how many of those are now lost forever?

    I so wish I spent more money on data storage back in the 90s and kept better backups. As it is, I have a backup from 1994 and 1999, and that's it.






    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    Synchronet MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org

    ... A journey of a thousand sandwiches begins with a single cut.

    My cousin kept hard copies of important emails and other documents in a fire resistant safe in his office in case of emergency. The safe was lost along with everything else on the 35th floor of building one at the World Trade Center. The day after 9/11/01 he went back to work at their backup facility
    on Long Island. The backup facility was created because of the 1993 WTC
    garage bombing.

    ---
    Synchronet The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Nightfox on Wednesday, May 04, 2022 00:28:00
    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstr
    By: Nightfox to Boraxman on Tue May 03 2022 12:45 pm

    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstr
    By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Tue May 03 2022 06:34 pm

    I still have some data from the 90s and 2000's, but most people I would wager, don't, and if they do, it is lost, obscure, opaque. Look at all BBS's that existed in the 80's and 90's, how many of those are now lost forever?

    When I took my original BBS down in 2000, I burned a backup of it onto a CD-

    Nightfox

    You're lucky. Some older burnt CD's are fussy with regards to readers, and some de-laminated over time.

    ---
    Synchronet The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Kaelon on Wednesday, May 04, 2022 20:41:00
    Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <627142DE.8494.dove-int@vert.synchro.net>
    @REPLY: <6270F7AE.5359.dove-int@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstr
    By: Boraxman to Kaelon on
    Tue May 03 2022 06:34 pm

    I still have some data from the 90s and 2000's, but most people I would wager, don't, and if they do, it is lost, obscure, opaque. Look at all the BBS's that existed in the 80's and 90's, how many of those are now lost forever?

    Very well stated. And this is the tragedy, really, of our current
    digital ecosystem. In the late 1980s, my dad interviewed the entire
    family and built a comprehensive family tree stretching back into the 1400s -- which he then reconciled with Church records in Spain to go
    back even further! -- but he stored it on tape backup.

    Two problems:

    1. The tape backup, which for all you know may still be readable,
    depends upon hardware that is no longer produced.

    2. The family tree software, which was legacy DOS and never ported or migrated, is impossible to find now and it's a relic. He may have it in disks somewhere, but it's probably 5 1/4" disks rather than the somewhat-more-manageable 3 1/2", which also poses other media problems.

    Between the loss of media inter-operability and format / software conversion, that entire labor - and the wealth of family knowledge from relatives who have since passed on - is, as far as the rest of the
    family is concerned, totally lost.

    How do we even begin to solve problems as large as human history's recorded deficit, when we can't even deal with the BBS'es from the
    1990s or family trees from the 1980s? _____

    That is such a shame... I've moved away from proprietary software and propreitary formats, to storing important data in as an accessible format as you can. Plain text, or markup, or some schema that is still plain text (ie, XML or even an Emacs ORG mode file).

    You may lose the software which manages it, but a text editor can still reveal the data.


    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    Synchronet MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to poindexter FORTRAN on Wednesday, May 04, 2022 20:44:00
    poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <627151ED.5121.dove.dove-int@realitycheckbbs.org>
    @REPLY: <6270F7AE.5359.dove-int@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    Boraxman wrote to Kaelon <=-

    I love this practice, and genuinely, wish I would adopt it more often myself. Of course, the loss of Geocities was tremendous because
    virtually all of those sites were filled with really interesting information from amateurs and professionals alike. True subject matter experts are passionate and know their topics really well, and when you
    see them provide insight, it's a joy to read and review.

    Wordpress.com is a good starting point, they have a great UI, free
    plans, and you can export your data to your self-hosted wordpress
    instance when you're ready.

    I've captured information for posterity, shared photos, and written a
    FAQ that are all hosted on a site I started in 2000.

    I have used wordpress sites, but not wordpress.com. It is pretty good, and easy to get up and running. I have a half developed site, but decided to just go with plain HTML and CSS.

    I still have some data from the 90s and 2000's, but most people I would wager, don't, and if they do, it is lost, obscure, opaque. Look at all the BBS's that existed in the 80's and 90's, how many of those are now lost forever?

    I so wish I spent more money on data storage back in the 90s and kept better backups. As it is, I have a backup from 1994 and 1999, and
    that's it.


    Same, though in the 90's I didn't have money, being a student. I wish I kept the school work I did and bought more floppies to back things up I though I didn't need anymore. But the hard drive I had was tiny, and I had no where else but some floppies to put things, and they were limited. I have most of my files from back then, going back to the stuff on 360K disks, but for some reason, files I created myself I've been more willing to just delete when the school work or project was handed in. I really regret taping over my tape of Commodore 64 programs I wrote.

    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    Synchronet MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From Kaelon@VERT to Boraxman on Wednesday, May 04, 2022 10:57:21
    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstr
    By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Wed May 04 2022 08:41 pm

    That is such a shame... I've moved away from proprietary software and propreitary formats, to storing important data in as an accessible format as you can. Plain text, or markup, or some schema that is still plain text (ie, XML or even an Emacs ORG mode file).

    You may lose the software which manages it, but a text editor can still reveal the data.

    I love this, and it's so true. I have a lot of WordPerfect 5.1 documents that, fortunately, I can still read on DOSBox, but if I just save them in standard plain text, I'll at least never have to worry about having to access that content through an interpreter that may, for all we know, suddenly stop working in some not-so-distant future.
    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Digital Man@VERT to Nightfox on Wednesday, May 04, 2022 11:16:06
    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstr
    By: Nightfox to Kaelon on Tue May 03 2022 03:55 pm

    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstr
    By: Kaelon to Nightfox on Tue May 03 2022 03:23 pm

    When I took my original BBS down in 2000, I burned a backup of it onto
    a CD-R. Last I checked (just a few years ago), that CD-R is still
    readable.

    Consider submitting it to the Internet Archive. They readily accept data donations, including software and underlying packages, for posterity.

    That's an idea. It has registered copies of some software though (including RemoteAccess, a FTN mail tosser, and a copule registered BBS doors which I still run on my current BBS).

    Be sure to wipe passwords, phone numers, etc. too.
    --
    digital man (rob)

    Synchronet/BBS Terminology Definition #81:
    Telenet = Proprietary packet switched network (variant on X.75)
    Norco, CA WX: 74.1F, 48.0% humidity, 2 mph E wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs
    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Digital Man@VERT to Kaelon on Wednesday, May 04, 2022 11:18:23
    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstr
    By: Kaelon to Digital Man on Tue May 03 2022 10:45 pm

    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstr
    By: Digital Man to Kaelon on Tue May 03 2022 10:16 pm

    2. The family tree software, which was legacy DOS and never ported or migrated, is impossible to find now and it's a relic. He may have it in

    Family Tree Maker by chance? I had the same/similar experience.

    Actually, I think that's the one. I'll have to check with my dad; he's off on a geriatric escape with fellow old fogeys to Spain, and I know he's thinking about the family tree stuff.

    I wonder what, if anything, we can do to read the data and convert it. Definitely a project worth him undertaking and me helping him out; the insights there are priceless.

    My grandmother, in my case, collected all the data and stories into a word processor (Galaxy) and FTM. We helped her to print the entire tree on a dot matrix printer and then taped the pages together. Fun project, but not sure how much of that effort remains in a useable form. Now with 23andme and Ancestry, they can automate much of that work (through bloodlines, at least).
    --
    digital man (rob)

    Sling Blade quote #16:
    Karl Childers (to Doyle, re: lawn mower blade): I aim to kill you with it. Mmm. Norco, CA WX: 74.1F, 48.0% humidity, 2 mph E wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs
    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Kaelon@VERT to Digital Man on Wednesday, May 04, 2022 12:02:13
    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstr
    By: Digital Man to Kaelon on Wed May 04 2022 11:18 am

    My grandmother, in my case, collected all the data and stories into a word processor (Galaxy) and FTM. We helped her to print the entire tree on a dot matrix printer and then taped the pages together. Fun project, but not sure how much of that effort remains in a useable form. Now with 23andme and Ancestry, they can automate much of that work (through bloodlines, at least).

    Yes. I am definitely a big fan of those services and enjoy using them to trace my European lineage.

    One of the reasons why we interviewed all of our elderly relatives, including great grandmother and great aunts and uncles on all lines, is that all of my family lines lead back to Spain by way of Cuba. Unfortunately, Ancestry.com and 23andMe largely rely upon North American census and service records, whereas much of the Caribbean and Mediterranean world relies upon handwritten -- and un-indexed! -- Church records, namely, baptisms, marriage certificates, and the like.


    _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to MRO on Thursday, May 05, 2022 20:36:00
    MRO wrote to Nightfox <=-

    @MSGID: <627231D5.1252.dove-int@bbses.info>
    @REPLY: <6271866E.5586.dove_dove-int@digitaldistortionbbs.com>
    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstr
    By: Nightfox to Boraxman on Tue May 03 2022 12:45 pm

    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstr
    By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Tue May 03 2022 06:34 pm

    I still have some data from the 90s and 2000's, but most people I would wager, don't, and if they do, it is lost, obscure, opaque. Look at all the BBS's that existed in the 80's and 90's, how many of those are now lost forever?

    When I took my original BBS down in 2000, I burned a backup of it onto a CD-R. Last I checked (just a few years ago), that CD-R is still readable.


    it's readable until it isn't. it depends on that day in the factory,
    the media type, your drive, and the environment it's in.

    even in a perfect environment i had cds rot

    Mine are all good, including DVD's, except for a few which have deteriorated around the edges. A bad lot from one spindle.

    But the last time you checked, may be the last time you could have ever read the disk, so it is best to move them to Hard Drive and make a backup of the Hard Drive if you don't want to lose the files.

    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    Synchronet MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Boraxman on Wednesday, May 04, 2022 07:02:00
    Boraxman wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    I have used wordpress sites, but not wordpress.com. It is pretty good, and easy to get up and running. I have a half developed site, but
    decided to just go with plain HTML and CSS.

    There's a package called Blosxsom that had promise - you leave text
    files in a directory on a web server and Blosxom formats it, adds
    headers/footers/sidebars/styles.

    I like that idea.

    I know there are a ton of static web page generators, WP is typically
    overkill for most.

    It would be nice for people to get back to publishing their own
    content again, although if you're looking to get your writing seen,
    you're better off on Medium or Substack.




    ... Towards the insignificant
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    Synchronet .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to poindexter FORTRAN on Friday, May 06, 2022 16:12:00
    poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <6273D46B.5137.dove.dove-int@realitycheckbbs.org>
    @REPLY: <62725ADD.5367.dove-int@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    Boraxman wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    I have used wordpress sites, but not wordpress.com. It is pretty good, and easy to get up and running. I have a half developed site, but
    decided to just go with plain HTML and CSS.

    There's a package called Blosxsom that had promise - you leave text
    files in a directory on a web server and Blosxom formats it, adds
    headers/footers/sidebars/styles.

    I like that idea.

    I know there are a ton of static web page generators, WP is typically
    overkill for most.

    It would be nice for people to get back to publishing their own
    content again, although if you're looking to get your writing seen,
    you're better off on Medium or Substack.

    It worries me that as things get more centralised, it would give these people who hold the keys more power to gatekeep. If substack is taken over or capture by ideologues, a real threat for anything in a Western, especially American country, then authors and views will be made to dissapear.


    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    Synchronet MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Boraxman on Friday, May 06, 2022 12:18:00
    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstr
    By: Boraxman to MRO on Thu May 05 2022 08:36 pm

    MRO wrote to Nightfox <=-

    @MSGID: <627231D5.1252.dove-int@bbses.info>
    @REPLY: <6271866E.5586.dove_dove-int@digitaldistortionbbs.com>
    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstr
    By: Nightfox to Boraxman on Tue May 03 2022 12:45 pm

    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstr
    By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Tue May 03 2022 06:34 pm

    I still have some data from the 90s and 2000's, but most people I wo wager, don't, and if they do, it is lost, obscure, opaque. Look at a the BBS's that existed in the 80's and 90's, how many of those are n lost forever?

    When I took my original BBS down in 2000, I burned a backup of it onto a CD-R. Last I checked (just a few years ago), that CD-R is still readable.


    it's readable until it isn't. it depends on that day in the factory, the media type, your drive, and the environment it's in.

    even in a perfect environment i had cds rot

    Mine are all good, including DVD's, except for a few which have deteriorated around the edges. A bad lot from one spindle.

    But the last time you checked, may be the last time you could have ever read the disk, so it is best to move them to Hard Drive and make a backup of the Hard Drive if you don't want to lose the files.


    A couple of years back I noticed that Flagnet had a Facebook page. I was on there from 1991 to 1994, when they moved from Michigan to Indiana, and
    dropped their local call in number. There were five or six BBS in my area
    that I had continued using until 1997 when they finally moved to websites on the internet. Flagnet was primarily a Commodore user's site but open to anyone. It was all run on an Amiga. The operator took it down around the same time others took their BBS' down in 96-97, but kept his machine in storage. Later on he brought it back out to access through Telnet, and began having problems due to bad capacitors and a leaky battery. A few years passed
    and he found another Amiga locally. I don't know what he did wrong, but he somehow lost information when he hooked his external drives back up. He
    thouht he had CD backups, but they all went bad too. Lat time I asked him about it, he has made no plans to build up a new BBS from scratch.

    ---
    Synchronet The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Boraxman on Saturday, May 07, 2022 10:54:00
    Boraxman wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    It worries me that as things get more centralised, it would give these people who hold the keys more power to gatekeep. If substack is taken over or capture by ideologues, a real threat for anything in a Western, especially American country, then authors and views will be made to dissapear.

    Or, more subtly, political and ideological views that don't fit in
    with a perspective that the company running the site wants, either for political gain or profit, get buried, and you run into the
    "manipulated feed" scenario we're in with Facebook.



    ... If it isn't broken, I can fix it.
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    Synchronet .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to all on Wednesday, May 04, 2022 15:28:43
    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstr
    By: Digital Man to Nightfox on Wed May 04 2022 11:16 am

    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstr
    By: Nightfox to Kaelon on Tue May 03 2022 03:55 pm

    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstr
    By: Kaelon to Nightfox on Tue May 03 2022 03:23 pm

    When I took my original BBS down in 2000, I burned a backup of it onto
    a CD-R. Last I checked (just a few years ago), that CD-R is still
    readable.

    Consider submitting it to the Internet Archive. They readily accept data donations, including software and underlying packages, for posterity.

    That's an idea. It has registered copies of some software though (including RemoteAccess, a FTN mail tosser, and a copule registered BBS doors which I still run on my current BBS).

    Be sure to wipe passwords, phone numers, etc. too.


    i wouldnt recommend uploading a bbs onto the internet archive unless you want some moron just taking it and running your bbs. i had a telegard bbs i ran zipped up for people to learn from. a guy just ran it because he said it was "just like" his old bbs. i'm sure it was not just like it. the guy was just lazy. he didn't change one damn thing, he didn't write any mods using my examples either.
    ---
    Synchronet ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Boraxman on Thursday, May 05, 2022 06:58:44
    Re: Resurgence of non-mainstr
    By: Boraxman to MRO on Thu May 05 2022 08:36 pm


    Mine are all good, including DVD's, except for a few which have deteriorated around the edges. A bad lot from one spindle.

    But the last time you checked, may be the last time you could have ever read the disk, so it is best to move them to Hard Drive and make a backup of the Hard Drive if you don't want to lose the files.


    maybe flash drives are the way to go. one winter one broke off my keychain at work and through the whole season it was buried in snow and salt.

    i found it months later and it still worked!
    ---
    Synchronet ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::